Autorotations & Low RRPM in Flight Schools

[Aicila2491]

Hello everyone. Thank you in advance for your time reading and answering my question.

I would like to know if it is convinient, worth it and smart to ask my flight school or Chief Pilot to train Autorotations with the engine actually off and to train manual RRPM skills (i.e. Governor Off).

The Pilot's Operating Handbook states " Flight is prohibited with governor selected off, with the exceptions for in-flight system malfunction or emergency procedures training"

The reason for me wanting to train this way is to get comfortable in hazardous conditions and learn how to really identify the incipient stages of both emergency situations.

thanks again,

A

[Agile]

Originally Posted by Aicila2491

Hello everyone. Thank you in advance for your time reading and answering my question.

I would like to know if it is convinient, worth it and smart to ask my flight school or Chief Pilot to train Autorotations with the engine actually off and to train manual RRPM skills (i.e. Governor Off).

The Pilot's Operating Handbook states " Flight is prohibited with governor selected off, with the exceptions for in-flight system malfunction or emergency procedures training"

The reason for me wanting to train this way is to get comfortable in hazardous conditions and learn how to really identify the incipient stages of both emergency situations.

thanks again,

A

You should do a lot of governor off training, when I upgraded from the R22 to the H300 (with no governor) my piloting skill got sudenly so much better.
1/ its easier than it seems because the corelator is quite good and it comes naturally before you realize
2/ it really give you feedback into how much power you are using (instead of the R22 small RRPM needle that starts saging when its already too late)
3/ you understand better the diferent phases of flight and how much power they require, for example holding the tail against the wind will force you to adjust the throttle up, then you understand where you are.
4/ there are time when you want RRPM to be on top of the range (high performance take off) there are time when you want RRPM on bottom of the range (that used to help me get a super smooth touch down let the RRPM decay ever so slightly)
5/ when the RRPM needle goes down with governor on "its a problem", when you increase the throttle and the expected RRPM does not go up like it used too "its real", you remember it, it registers better in your system.
6/ it teaches you to lead the aircraft, not have the aircraft lead you.

Train Autorotations with the engine actually off, why take risk when you don't have to, engine at idle is the same.

[ApolloHeli]

Originally Posted by Aicila2491

Hello everyone. Thank you in advance for your time reading and answering my question.

I would like to know if it is convinient, worth it and smart to ask my flight school or Chief Pilot to train Autorotations with the engine actually off and to train manual RRPM skills (i.e. Governor Off).

The Pilot's Operating Handbook states " Flight is prohibited with governor selected off, with the exceptions for in-flight system malfunction or emergency procedures training"

The reason for me wanting to train this way is to get comfortable in hazardous conditions and learn how to really identify the incipient stages of both emergency situations.

thanks again,

A

Which aircraft?

[nikoel]

Based on the POH quote, I’ll assume you’re referring to a Robinson helicopter with a piston engine.

In short: No, it is not. You gain nothing, and you are risking your life and worse, the airframe, for nothing.

When I train full-down autorotations, the engine is left at idle. This allows a go-around if the autorotation is suboptimal.
At the commitment point, if airspeed, attitude, and RRPM are correct, and the landing area is suitable (i.e., clear), the instructor rolls the throttle into the over-travel position (through the spring). This ensures that when pitch pull is performed, the correlator does not add throttle at touchdown. To the student, the autorotation feels identical to an engine-off condition.

Additionally, if RRPM is greater than engine RPM, the sprag clutch automatically engages. At this point, the engine is not driving the rotors in any way. You can compare this to riding a bicycle: imagine you are going downhill, you have reached your desired speed, and you stop pedaling. The bike will not slow down, and it may even continue to accelerate. Pedaling has no effect until you match or exceed the downhill speed.

The governor does not control RRPM; it controls the engine, which remains at idle. It has nothing to do with autorotational rotor RPM, which is controlled by the collective.

Governor-off training is completely different. In a Robinson helicopter, you must understand why you add throttle when lowering the collective and reduce throttle when raising it. This may seem counterintuitive at first, but it is explained by the correlator. The biggest issues I have observed in governor failures are not handling problems, but pilots who fail to distinguish between an engine failure and a governor failure in the roll-off direction. They then execute an autorotation in a perfectly flyable aircraft, with varying degrees of success. No amount of throttle handling will help in a blunder like that one

TLDR: If the engine is switched OFF, you gain nothing, and you lose the ability to execute a go-around. This is a poor decision.

I strongly recommend you deepen your knowledge of how these systems work. It is critical.

[mechpowi]

Originally Posted by 212man

I would spend less time worrying about your handling skills, and more time studying the books/manuals - you clearly have no idea what a governor is!

I assume that the OP refers to two different training scenarios, one involving EOLs and one involving flight with governor off. In this context I see reason to accuse them for missing system knowledge.

[212man]

Originally Posted by mechpowi

I assume that the OP refers to two different training scenarios, one involving EOLs and one involving flight with governor off. In this context I see reason to accuse them for missing system knowledge.

Having re-read the post I believe you may be correct and I will delete mine! That said, Nikoel had the same interpretation I did.......

[Hangarless]

I believe that it is very beneficial to learn to fly on a machine that has neither a correlator or a governor, which in my case was an Enstrom.I believe that it creates a very solid platform My instructor was also big on getting us to use not only our feel and eyes to see what was going on but also to develop listening skills as to what the sounds of a laboring engine or an over revving engine were.

Doing quickstops , which are essentially the last move in an Auto ,over and over again developed a good co-ordination of all of the flight control and throttle movements that all had to be made in harmony to achieve smooth stops without gaining height while keeping the needles within the limits.

What my instructor did one day was to hold the throttle when I tried to open it after doing a quickstop which resulted in the machine sinking and we ended up running the machine onto the runway with low power. Once we had stopped moving he looked at me and said "that is what a full Auto to the ground feels like". From then on it was easy for me as my instructor had taught me to become comfortable with making big control movements and also not to fear letting the skids make contact with the surface with a little bit of forward speed.

[Hangarless]

Originally Posted by ApolloHeli

Which aircraft?

Enstrom 280

[PPRuNeUser469990]

If we spent as much time teaching confined area, decision making and fuel management, as oppose to autorotations and quickstops the accident rate would plummet.

[Robbiee]

Originally Posted by Agile

...when I upgraded from the R22 to the H300 (with no governor) my piloting skill got sudenly so much better....

Funny, when I downgraded from the 22 to the 300, my piloting skills didn't change at all. My back really hurt though.

[Aicila2491]

Thanks everyone for debating.

So, how could I ask for or request to my flight school to do some training without governor on the R22? is there a law against it or as a paying student I have a right to choose how I want the training to be conducted up to a certain degree?

Thanks again,

A

[Hughes500]

Originally Posted by Robbiee

Funny, when I downgraded from the 22 to the 300, my piloting skills didn't change at all. My back really hurt though.

why is that funny? Oh yes you have it the wrong way round, down grading from a !!!!e training helicopter to one that as an instructor allows a massive margin or error for the student to recover before instructor steps in ?

[Ascend Charlie]

how could I ask for or request to my flight school to do some training without governor on the R22?

Tell them you want to practice the emergency procedures for when the governor fails.

[That lights normal!]

I think all piston Helicopters since the B47 have correlators. Most not as effective as the Robinson - really good in the most common flying range - slightly overly effective at other portions of the control movement as mentioned above.

It’s been a long time since I flew a B47, and longer since I flew an un governed R22. I’m getting old, and spoilt by beautiful glass cockpit twins. (I never had to switch a B47 off, and back on again to clear a fault…..)

[Robbiee]

Originally Posted by Aicila2491

Thanks everyone for debating.

So, how could I ask for or request to my flight school to do some training without governor on the R22? is there a law against it or as a paying student I have a right to choose how I want the training to be conducted up to a certain degree?

Thanks again,

A

Governor off training in the R22 is required. You won't have to ask for it.

[Robbiee]

Originally Posted by Hughes500

why is that funny? Oh yes you have it the wrong way round, down grading from a !!!!e training helicopter to one that as an instructor allows a massive margin or error for the student to recover before instructor steps in ?

Umm,...who said anything about instructing? I'm a rated pilot, making a joke about a helicopter I flew a few times.

,...and yes, the 300 is safer for the instructor during training than a helicopter that wasn't designed for it. After training is over however, the 300 sucks balls for joy riding!

[Aicila2491]

Thanks Robbie, that is was what I wanted to know. I thought perhaps flight schools would avoid doing this to cover themselves against any accident but glad to know it is mandatory.

A

[Agile]

Originally Posted by Robbiee

the 300 sucks balls for joy riding!

Joy riding, you mean going down the river canyon to lace a few 45deg turns, and climb the face of the ridge with generous negative G at the top....?!
Sorry I stay away from R22, R44+ for that... Rigid head much more reactive and safer.

[Robbiee]

Originally Posted by Agile

Joy riding, you mean going down the river canyon to lace a few 45deg turns, and climb the face of the ridge with generous negative G at the top....?!
Sorry I stay away from R22, R44+ for that... Rigid head much more reactive and safer.

Hmm,...so you're the reason renter's insurance is so expensive.

[212man]

Originally Posted by Aicila2491

Thanks everyone for debating.

So, how could I ask for or request to my flight school to do some training without governor on the R22? is there a law against it or as a paying student I have a right to choose how I want the training to be conducted up to a certain degree?

Thanks again,

A

I think you already answered that question in your first post:

the exceptions for in-flight system malfunction or emergency procedures training"

You need to train for malfunctions. To be honest I can’t even imagine how much training you need - the correlator works fine and I don’t even know why they introduced the governor.