CFI vs Tours
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Joined: Nov 2024
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From: Tropopause
CFI vs Tours
*If this is not the right place for this question please move it or indicate me in which forum should I post it*
Simple question:
If the possibility of getting a job right after flight school doing tours exists, would it be better to take it and then get the CFI or it is alwys better to get the CFI first?
If we compare two pilots in a 5 year period. One having done CFI first and then tours, and the other vice versa. Would there be a difference in terms of flying abilities and experience?
Simple question:
If the possibility of getting a job right after flight school doing tours exists, would it be better to take it and then get the CFI or it is alwys better to get the CFI first?
If we compare two pilots in a 5 year period. One having done CFI first and then tours, and the other vice versa. Would there be a difference in terms of flying abilities and experience?
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 446
Likes: 100
From: South East Asia
But I have seen the exception, pilot being hired with 150hour flight time, they do exist.
1/ your recommendations (you know somebody, or the school you come from knows somebody)
2/ your attitude (some people are well disciplined, follow the book, you know the type, just right for the job even without experience)
3/ the structure (there are company with a lot of experienced pilots, and taking a newbie can be win-win)
The other thing could be a guy with an R44 doing tours at fairs, not having much of the safety factor in his mind.
CFI work can be a great learning experience or just a way to build hours, it’s about your attitude and motivation and also whether the chief pilot or head of the school has interest to make you better or not
Joined: Dec 2005
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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From: Hong Kong
CFI will make you proficient at PTS maneuvers and more XC/Night/Instrument. Tours will give you more hands-on commercially-minded flying in something with more than 2 seats. And maybe more fun and better hours.
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 522
Likes: 77
From: USA
Insurance will be the issue. You'll learn more instructing than doing tours, plus it's more rewarding. Instruction is a great bedrock for competent pilot development. I've always found the folk that initially developed their experience from an instructional foundation are stronger pilots.
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 98
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From: Asia
I guess it would depend on the individual circumstances of each job. Giving tours in a R44 in an area that is flat with no weather issues is different than flying tours in Alaska or Hawaii. As a CFI will u be teaching new students? Advanced students? I was teaching touchdown autos back in the day in a R22a model(no tip weights). Transitioning to a 206 was a cakewalk after that. For me that was much better than flying around in circles all day.
Joined: Sep 2024
Posts: 21
Likes: 3
From: Florida
Common misperception. You learn a ton in the pattern. Cross country flying is, of course, necessary but that's the easy part. After instructing for a 1,000 hours or so, I found the pattern is where you hone your skills that you will need outside the pattern. Anybody can fly A to B.
Joined: Sep 2018
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 888
Likes: 65
From: California
*If this is not the right place for this question please move it or indicate me in which forum should I post it*
Simple question:
If the possibility of getting a job right after flight school doing tours exists, would it be better to take it and then get the CFI or it is alwys better to get the CFI first?
If we compare two pilots in a 5 year period. One having done CFI first and then tours, and the other vice versa. Would there be a difference in terms of flying abilities and experience?
Simple question:
If the possibility of getting a job right after flight school doing tours exists, would it be better to take it and then get the CFI or it is alwys better to get the CFI first?
If we compare two pilots in a 5 year period. One having done CFI first and then tours, and the other vice versa. Would there be a difference in terms of flying abilities and experience?
That said, if someone is offering you a job, take it. Jobs are few and far between these days.
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 239
Likes: 50
From: San Diego, CA
It's common for helicopter CFIs to spent most of their time doing tours or charter work, and the rest of the time instructing. If you're only a CPL then that limits what you can do, which isn't a big deal for the company but could limit how often you fly, thus limiting your pay. And typically the biggest tour operators, in very touristy areas, require a high number of hours for their pilots, so you want to fly as much as possible if only to accrue hours so you can get a better job.
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 431
Likes: 41
From: yes
Common misperception. You learn a ton in the pattern. Cross country flying is, of course, necessary but that's the easy part. After instructing for a 1,000 hours or so, I found the pattern is where you hone your skills that you will need outside the pattern. Anybody can fly A to B.
Joined: Sep 2024
Posts: 21
Likes: 3
From: Florida
Pretty much everything you do in a helicopter besides flying from A to B. How about you telll me all the skills you learned out there in the real world that I didn't at the airport besides a confined area. We did have to travel a little bit to find one.
Last edited by comingup; 19th May 2025 at 21:14.
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 446
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From: South East Asia
if weather get bad you land and roll the aircraft in the hangar, you can even fly 10 more minutes until the storm gets really close. If there is something wrong like, hot oil temp, or a chip light, same thing.
A to B you have a mission to achieve, and the opportunity to get in trouble are much higher, particularly with weather and the unfamiliarity of the surrounding.
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 431
Likes: 41
From: yes
The leading causes of helicopter accidents are rooted in human error, poor judgement, deficient ADM, weather, unintended IMC, loss of control, low-altitude operations in in the wire environment, confined areas, etc., and none of these can be adequately addressed in a traffic pattern.
See: https://ushst.org/
Rarely are the motor-skills of flying the cause of an accident. The skills needed to fly an aircraft are acquired early in ones’ career. By the FAA, a commercial rating can be obtained in as little as 150 hours of total flight time, including only 50 hours in helicopters (I think I got that right). And these privileges can then be exercised indefinity by just repeating biennial reviews (no traffic pattern work required). Major operators/insurers require or desire thousands of hours of experience, and if all of that time was simply acquired in a traffic pattern it probably wouldn’t be acceptable for employment consideration.
Your misconception of the value and purpose of traffic-pattern training is typical of an inexperienced pilot or naďve individual. The traffic pattern is primarily useful for obtaining the basic FAA ratings, type qualification and recurrency. The rubber meets the road outside of the traffic pattern.
And I have given thousands of hours of instruction.
I'm sure you've heard the old adage that, "a great pilot uses his superior judgement to keep him out of situations requing superior skill."
Joined: Sep 2018
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 888
Likes: 65
From: California
Common misperception. You learn a ton in the pattern. Cross country flying is, of course, necessary but that's the easy part. After instructing for a 1,000 hours or so, I found the pattern is where you hone your skills that you will need outside the pattern. Anybody can fly A to B.
These are some of the things I've learned as a casual R22 renter, after leaving the pattern.
Pattern work is great for keeping rust from forming on your basic takeoff and landings skills, and no risk autos, but that's about it.
Joined: Dec 2005
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 4,971
Likes: 326
From: Hong Kong
I'm going to state this bluntly.
The leading causes of helicopter accidents are rooted in human error, poor judgement, deficient ADM, weather, unintended IMC, loss of control, low-altitude operations in in the wire environment, confined areas, etc., and none of these can be adequately addressed in a traffic pattern.
See: https://ushst.org/
Rarely are the motor-skills of flying the cause of an accident. The skills needed to fly an aircraft are acquired early in ones’ career. By the FAA, a commercial rating can be obtained in as little as 150 hours of total flight time, including only 50 hours in helicopters (I think I got that right). And these privileges can then be exercised indefinity by just repeating biennial reviews (no traffic pattern work required). Major operators/insurers require or desire thousands of hours of experience, and if all of that time was simply acquired in a traffic pattern it probably wouldn’t be acceptable for employment consideration.
Your misconception of the value and purpose of traffic-pattern training is typical of an inexperienced pilot or naďve individual. The traffic pattern is primarily useful for obtaining the basic FAA ratings, type qualification and recurrency. The rubber meets the road outside of the traffic pattern.
And I have given thousands of hours of instruction.
I'm sure you've heard the old adage that, "a great pilot uses his superior judgement to keep him out of situations requing superior skill."
The leading causes of helicopter accidents are rooted in human error, poor judgement, deficient ADM, weather, unintended IMC, loss of control, low-altitude operations in in the wire environment, confined areas, etc., and none of these can be adequately addressed in a traffic pattern.
See: https://ushst.org/
Rarely are the motor-skills of flying the cause of an accident. The skills needed to fly an aircraft are acquired early in ones’ career. By the FAA, a commercial rating can be obtained in as little as 150 hours of total flight time, including only 50 hours in helicopters (I think I got that right). And these privileges can then be exercised indefinity by just repeating biennial reviews (no traffic pattern work required). Major operators/insurers require or desire thousands of hours of experience, and if all of that time was simply acquired in a traffic pattern it probably wouldn’t be acceptable for employment consideration.
Your misconception of the value and purpose of traffic-pattern training is typical of an inexperienced pilot or naďve individual. The traffic pattern is primarily useful for obtaining the basic FAA ratings, type qualification and recurrency. The rubber meets the road outside of the traffic pattern.
And I have given thousands of hours of instruction.
I'm sure you've heard the old adage that, "a great pilot uses his superior judgement to keep him out of situations requing superior skill."
Joined: Sep 2024
Posts: 21
Likes: 3
From: Florida
Oh boy, "bluntly"! You moved the goal posts with the judgement thing since we were discussing skill, not judgement. Probably because you couldn't come up with any skills. A five thousand hour pilot does not necessarily have any better judgement than a two hundred hour pilot. The five thousand hour pilot has demonstrated it, though. A one thousand hour CFI that has spent the bulk of their time in the pattern teaching has just as good (probably better) skills than most five thousand hour pilots and, quite possibly, better judgement. It's not that complicated. The whole "real world" flying is better just because you left an airport, is mostly hot garbage. It's all real world.
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 431
Likes: 41
From: yes
Oh boy, "bluntly"! You moved the goal posts with the judgement thing since we were discussing skill, not judgement. Probably because you couldn't come up with any skills. A five thousand hour pilot does not necessarily have any better judgement than a two hundred hour pilot. The five thousand hour pilot has demonstrated it, though. A one thousand hour CFI that has spent the bulk of their time in the pattern teaching has just as good (probably better) skills than most five thousand hour pilots and, quite possibly, better judgement. It's not that complicated. The whole "real world" flying is better just because you left an airport, is mostly hot garbage. It's all real world.
If you look at the introduction to chapter 2, ADM in the FAA’s Pilot’s Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge you’ll find the statement:
“The importance of learning and understanding effective ADM skills cannot be overemphasized."
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,330
Likes: 74
From: White Waltham, Prestwick & Calgary
As a chief pilot it was always decision making skills that did it for me, not stick time. After 1000 hours, you can't really tell the difference. Doing the circuit is 1 hour 5000 times, not 5000 hours.
Joined: Sep 2018
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 888
Likes: 65
From: California
Oh boy, "bluntly"! You moved the goal posts with the judgement thing since we were discussing skill, not judgement. Probably because you couldn't come up with any skills. A five thousand hour pilot does not necessarily have any better judgement than a two hundred hour pilot. The five thousand hour pilot has demonstrated it, though. A one thousand hour CFI that has spent the bulk of their time in the pattern teaching has just as good (probably better) skills than most five thousand hour pilots and, quite possibly, better judgement. It's not that complicated. The whole "real world" flying is better just because you left an airport, is mostly hot garbage. It's all real world.
This reminds me of the stories I used to hear about the 1,000 hour CFI who gets his first job away from the pattern flying tours for Papillon, then goes to the cheif pilot to tell him how the operation "should" be run, lol.
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,081
Likes: 189
From: Redding CA, or on a fire somewhere
Agree to a certain extent. I am check airman for our company and can tell you that the pilots who are former CFI “circuit queens” can actually fly an approach and departure to the Standards set by the FAA in the PTS, (practical test standards), and can actually perform an autorotation without “mentoring”. Those that were not “circuit queens” require “training to proficiency” each year.