Bristow UK strike
edited to note that HC just observed the same thing.
Originally Posted by [email protected]
The MCA are probably crossing their fingers and hoping nothing bad happens - also probably wondering how their land grab for UKSAR could have gone so wrong.
The only bit I would argue, is the assertion that SAR may have been better off within JHC. The Army just about cope with funding, operating and supporting RAF green fleet assets, and yellow aircraft would have had no chance..... would have perhaps imploded before offloading.
That capability exists; just not on a dedicated basis (and no, not whatever it was the Merlins thought they were doing in the early 2000's). Bottom line, I am not aware of any CSAR 'asks' that have not been met.
You don't usually make mistakes 212 but you've added three zeros onto the stats for fire deaths - the figures for callouts are in thousands but the figures for fatalities are actual figures - just under 300 for 2023.
edited to note that HC just observed the same thing.
edited to note that HC just observed the same thing.
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
MGD - as I have seen many times, the US military talk the talk but when you've been raised on Bud light, real beer comes as a bit of a shock and walking the walk turns quickly into a stagger
Saless, you want to try drinking with the Belgians!!!
I've drunk with a few US Army WO pilots - nice guys but lightweights on the p*ss - you should try a few Royal Marine NCO pilots if you want a drinking challenge.
Saless, you want to try drinking with the Belgians!!!
I've drunk with a few US Army WO pilots - nice guys but lightweights on the p*ss - you should try a few Royal Marine NCO pilots if you want a drinking challenge.
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Sad times ....
This is sadly death by a thousand cuts, and I fear the long term consequences will not be good for the industry, the company nor ultimately for the pilots, engineers and staff.
How many pilots really want to go and work for one of the other operators - Some I'm sure, but I would still choose Bristow if I had to make that choice. Bristow has always been well respected operator. The pay is good - Perhaps not the best, but it is up there with their peers. The roster pattern is excellent. The training is superb. The engineering is first rate.
We have seen many examples of operators bidding the lowest price to win work and then failing to make money. I'm sure there are operators willing to give their staff whatever they demand, but that path will fail in the long term. You can give the clients whatever they want, but again, will inevitably lose money. We see this time and again. Here we have a company that tends to follow a 'middle of the road' path - Maintaining good clients, solid contracts but not at any cost. They pay their staff a fair wage - Perhaps not the industry best, but in line with the others and typically one of the better payers. I can't pretend to know where Bristow sits in the rankings now, but just as an average over the past.
This is supposed to be a negotiation - It feels like blackmail. The union blame the management. The management blame the union - As was ever the way. But as a workforce, everyone wants more pay, more pension, more inflation proofing, better terms and conditions. There has to be some 'give' if we are wanting to take. You can't get everything. Are pilots ever willing to relinquish pay to get improved T's & C's or vice versa? I'm not sure what the workforce are expecting, but I'm very worried by this course of action. Government Departments are involved - O&G clients will be looking at the outcome and making future plans that I feel will be disastrous for Bristow, and likely have a knock on effect to all operators.
I would have accepted the pay offer. It seemed about as good as one could have expected. The union go in with an unrealistic demand. The company reply with an equally unfair proposal and then they negotiate and meet somewhere in the middle - That's how it works. But this hardline demand for more and more, against contracts that were agreed years ago and cannot be amended, is just holding a gun to the company's head. I don't think this would have happened 10 years ago, but now they have the SAR contract, the union and staff feel that the company will 'fold' that bit sooner.
Sorry to break with the positive 'solidarity brothers' jingoistic theme of this thread, but this knife attack on a company that has offered the largest pay offer I would imagine in the last 20 years, will quite possibly kill off what has been the most constantly 'reasonable' operator of the lot, and that can't be good for any of us.
This is sadly death by a thousand cuts, and I fear the long term consequences will not be good for the industry, the company nor ultimately for the pilots, engineers and staff.
How many pilots really want to go and work for one of the other operators - Some I'm sure, but I would still choose Bristow if I had to make that choice. Bristow has always been well respected operator. The pay is good - Perhaps not the best, but it is up there with their peers. The roster pattern is excellent. The training is superb. The engineering is first rate.
We have seen many examples of operators bidding the lowest price to win work and then failing to make money. I'm sure there are operators willing to give their staff whatever they demand, but that path will fail in the long term. You can give the clients whatever they want, but again, will inevitably lose money. We see this time and again. Here we have a company that tends to follow a 'middle of the road' path - Maintaining good clients, solid contracts but not at any cost. They pay their staff a fair wage - Perhaps not the industry best, but in line with the others and typically one of the better payers. I can't pretend to know where Bristow sits in the rankings now, but just as an average over the past.
This is supposed to be a negotiation - It feels like blackmail. The union blame the management. The management blame the union - As was ever the way. But as a workforce, everyone wants more pay, more pension, more inflation proofing, better terms and conditions. There has to be some 'give' if we are wanting to take. You can't get everything. Are pilots ever willing to relinquish pay to get improved T's & C's or vice versa? I'm not sure what the workforce are expecting, but I'm very worried by this course of action. Government Departments are involved - O&G clients will be looking at the outcome and making future plans that I feel will be disastrous for Bristow, and likely have a knock on effect to all operators.
I would have accepted the pay offer. It seemed about as good as one could have expected. The union go in with an unrealistic demand. The company reply with an equally unfair proposal and then they negotiate and meet somewhere in the middle - That's how it works. But this hardline demand for more and more, against contracts that were agreed years ago and cannot be amended, is just holding a gun to the company's head. I don't think this would have happened 10 years ago, but now they have the SAR contract, the union and staff feel that the company will 'fold' that bit sooner.
Sorry to break with the positive 'solidarity brothers' jingoistic theme of this thread, but this knife attack on a company that has offered the largest pay offer I would imagine in the last 20 years, will quite possibly kill off what has been the most constantly 'reasonable' operator of the lot, and that can't be good for any of us.
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you forgot to mention that operators understand that aircrew are the most compliant and malleable workforce there is - which is partly why they are in the state they are currently in.
The Race to the Bottom has been actively facilitated by the clients in various and nefarious ways.
I see that the ‘Yellow’ ones have been knocking on doors asking for interest from a previous ‘interested party’ - even though they were incapable of providing a reasonable set of accounts for the investor to dig into.
The Race to the Bottom has been actively facilitated by the clients in various and nefarious ways.
I see that the ‘Yellow’ ones have been knocking on doors asking for interest from a previous ‘interested party’ - even though they were incapable of providing a reasonable set of accounts for the investor to dig into.
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Is there a bigger issue where the large U.K. workforce on already better pay and now looking for more will knock on to the poorer NLSAR brethren who earn vastly less.
However UKSAR rear crew pay is unacceptably low, where Irish SAR rear crew are amongst the best paid in the industry yet have less breadth of experience and lower capability when it is broken down to simple terms.
There is also the argument that lesser pay deal could be better received if the organisation was better, with a more lifestyle based roster. This is something Bristow have caught up with in certain areas but were always the most resistant to instigate apart from the red devils in the era of accidents and band member leadership.
However UKSAR rear crew pay is unacceptably low, where Irish SAR rear crew are amongst the best paid in the industry yet have less breadth of experience and lower capability when it is broken down to simple terms.
There is also the argument that lesser pay deal could be better received if the organisation was better, with a more lifestyle based roster. This is something Bristow have caught up with in certain areas but were always the most resistant to instigate apart from the red devils in the era of accidents and band member leadership.
However UKSAR rear crew pay is unacceptably low, where Irish SAR rear crew are amongst the best paid in the industry yet have less breadth of experience and lower capability when it is broken down to simple terms.
I said almost exactly that at the beginning when they released their rearcrew pay scales.Special 25 - if you were quoting for a big 10-year Govt contract, wouldn't you have allowed provision in the costs for inflation and rising wage demands?
Getting towards the end of it and trying to browbeat your staff to give up those nice Ts and Cs is just poor management. I have little sympathy as they have already used the profits from UKSAR to keep the rest of the Bristow Group solvent.
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I think we now have to officially welcome a member of Bristow management (Special 25) onto this forum. At least use different terms in your posts from what was spouted by management at yesterday’s town hall call to throw us off the trail! The roster is the same as our peers, the training has already started to slide as has the engineering. When does it end? That BVA that used to get banded about is now firmly in the profit column.
NorthernStar - BALPA and Bristow aircrew aren’t asking for a company crippling rise, just that their pay in some way keeps up with experienced inflation. The union have continually said to the company that this negotiation is only on pay but they keep including a resetting of all T&C.
It’s worth noting that the award of NLSAR and associated pay & conditions has been since ERA bought Bristow. Is it any surprise that the attack on U.K. T&C is now happening? I predict the employees of IRESAR will have similar coming at them in the next few years…
NorthernStar - BALPA and Bristow aircrew aren’t asking for a company crippling rise, just that their pay in some way keeps up with experienced inflation. The union have continually said to the company that this negotiation is only on pay but they keep including a resetting of all T&C.
It’s worth noting that the award of NLSAR and associated pay & conditions has been since ERA bought Bristow. Is it any surprise that the attack on U.K. T&C is now happening? I predict the employees of IRESAR will have similar coming at them in the next few years…
Every time someone has an opinion that doesn’t tie in with the strike action, doesn’t mean that they are Bristow management. I’m not Bristow management - im not even a Bristow pilot!!
But I just support the idea of some element of ‘balance’. Unlike many, I remember the 70’s and an era of strike action. I don’t think it does anyone any good. An 11% pay rise isn’t bad. It’s a massive step in the right direction.
Yes, as someone previously said, I’m
sure maintenance rises and predictable pay rises are built into contracts, but I don’t suppose any of them predicted this!
I don’t know what time your town hall was yesterday - My post was early in the morning. Maybe management are quoting me?!! 😀
But I just support the idea of some element of ‘balance’. Unlike many, I remember the 70’s and an era of strike action. I don’t think it does anyone any good. An 11% pay rise isn’t bad. It’s a massive step in the right direction.
Yes, as someone previously said, I’m
sure maintenance rises and predictable pay rises are built into contracts, but I don’t suppose any of them predicted this!
I don’t know what time your town hall was yesterday - My post was early in the morning. Maybe management are quoting me?!! 😀
We wouldn’t be in this mess if it was a clean cut pay rise to in some way keep up with inflationary rises. Bristow are very good at peddling the numbers of the rise as if it’s the only factor at play. The Union were initially going to recommend what was on offer but were then taken at the knees by the table sweep of all previously agreed T&C which if you run the numbers would make up a considerable part of the pay rise. Or as management like to call it, a “self funded pay rise”.
This is all coming from the top. The business is doing well as it stands. The financials are healthy and wouldn’t be dented by respecting their people and giving them an acceptable offer. But what we see here is pure greed to benefit those that will probably not be here in 3-4 years.
This is all coming from the top. The business is doing well as it stands. The financials are healthy and wouldn’t be dented by respecting their people and giving them an acceptable offer. But what we see here is pure greed to benefit those that will probably not be here in 3-4 years.
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There is no loyalty on the North Sea. Pilots move between companies all the time, I know guys who have left A gone to B completed the OCC and then a week later gone back to A!
The pilot workforce has the power here to make a difference to their own working conditions and pay and I am all for that.
Saying that strike action is blackmail is wrong. There will have been lots of negotiations upto this point as strike requires procedure to be legally followed first and it is the last tool in the box.
Pilot numbers will be in decline in rotary, not all pilots want to work from Aberdeen, not all pilots want to do offshore work due to its nature. Power to the offshore pilots.
Offshore O&G companies are making unbelievable amounts of money but one of the critical services (flights!) have been racing to the bottom, not the pilots fault but the operator. There is money here, lots of it.
Special 25 if you are happy working for an employer who says yes you can have an 11% rise but you will have to pay for your own accommodation in the shetlands for the time the company needs you there along with dropping all other Ts&Cs.
let's say your company based in Aberdeen said we need you to work in the Shetlands for the next 3 days, you will have to pay for and find your own accommodation and food etc. would you do that? It sounds like you want the O&G companies to make as much money as they can and screw the worker.
As we all know we are only 1 medical away from losing the jobs we love, not many industries have this so let's make hay whilst the sun shines because tomorrow might never stop raining.
The pilot workforce has the power here to make a difference to their own working conditions and pay and I am all for that.
Saying that strike action is blackmail is wrong. There will have been lots of negotiations upto this point as strike requires procedure to be legally followed first and it is the last tool in the box.
Pilot numbers will be in decline in rotary, not all pilots want to work from Aberdeen, not all pilots want to do offshore work due to its nature. Power to the offshore pilots.
Offshore O&G companies are making unbelievable amounts of money but one of the critical services (flights!) have been racing to the bottom, not the pilots fault but the operator. There is money here, lots of it.
Special 25 if you are happy working for an employer who says yes you can have an 11% rise but you will have to pay for your own accommodation in the shetlands for the time the company needs you there along with dropping all other Ts&Cs.
let's say your company based in Aberdeen said we need you to work in the Shetlands for the next 3 days, you will have to pay for and find your own accommodation and food etc. would you do that? It sounds like you want the O&G companies to make as much money as they can and screw the worker.
As we all know we are only 1 medical away from losing the jobs we love, not many industries have this so let's make hay whilst the sun shines because tomorrow might never stop raining.
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There is no loyalty on the North Sea. Pilots move between companies all the time, I know guys who have left A gone to B completed the OCC and then a week later gone back to A!
The pilot workforce has the power here to make a difference to their own working conditions and pay and I am all for that.
Saying that strike action is blackmail is wrong. There will have been lots of negotiations upto this point as strike requires procedure to be legally followed first and it is the last tool in the box.
Pilot numbers will be in decline in rotary, not all pilots want to work from Aberdeen, not all pilots want to do offshore work due to its nature. Power to the offshore pilots.
Offshore O&G companies are making unbelievable amounts of money but one of the critical services (flights!) have been racing to the bottom, not the pilots fault but the operator. There is money here, lots of it.
Special 25 if you are happy working for an employer who says yes you can have an 11% rise but you will have to pay for your own accommodation in the shetlands for the time the company needs you there along with dropping all other Ts&Cs.
let's say your company based in Aberdeen said we need you to work in the Shetlands for the next 3 days, you will have to pay for and find your own accommodation and food etc. would you do that? It sounds like you want the O&G companies to make as much money as they can and screw the worker.
As we all know we are only 1 medical away from losing the jobs we love, not many industries have this so let's make hay whilst the sun shines because tomorrow might never stop raining.
The pilot workforce has the power here to make a difference to their own working conditions and pay and I am all for that.
Saying that strike action is blackmail is wrong. There will have been lots of negotiations upto this point as strike requires procedure to be legally followed first and it is the last tool in the box.
Pilot numbers will be in decline in rotary, not all pilots want to work from Aberdeen, not all pilots want to do offshore work due to its nature. Power to the offshore pilots.
Offshore O&G companies are making unbelievable amounts of money but one of the critical services (flights!) have been racing to the bottom, not the pilots fault but the operator. There is money here, lots of it.
Special 25 if you are happy working for an employer who says yes you can have an 11% rise but you will have to pay for your own accommodation in the shetlands for the time the company needs you there along with dropping all other Ts&Cs.
let's say your company based in Aberdeen said we need you to work in the Shetlands for the next 3 days, you will have to pay for and find your own accommodation and food etc. would you do that? It sounds like you want the O&G companies to make as much money as they can and screw the worker.
As we all know we are only 1 medical away from losing the jobs we love, not many industries have this so let's make hay whilst the sun shines because tomorrow might never stop raining.
We will see one of 2 things, or both:
A move towards type rating being the preferred option and a very expensive bond for 3 - 5 years
Training bonds for occ
Nigerian In Law
In the early 90s I was on Tigers (ie Bristow) doing 4/3/4 Aberdeen/Sumburgh/Off plus 28 days annual leave. I got free accommodation and £18/day Sumburgh allowance.
It seems things have changed............
NEO
It seems things have changed............
NEO
An Outsider's view of this situation.....
There I wuz thinking "loyalty" was supposed to be a two way street.....now what did I get wrong in that concept?
The old saw about "You get what you pay for!" rings a bell somehow.
When two sides take up opposing positions on matters then loyalty goes out the door and compromise becomes a competition to see how much each side can get and how much each side does not have to give up.
In time this Strike shall come to an end....they all do at some point with a less than happy outcome usually.
The side with the deepest pockets is going to prevail (I was going to use the word "win" but there are no winners in a Strike).
When the mortgage payments, car payments, alimony payments, kid's dental braces and school fees, and other expenses come due....then some serious contemplation shall take place among the Strikers.
Those who have been careful with their spending will be able to weather this storm....the others are going to be in the Hurt Locker.
How much are you willing to lose in this horse trade?
I watched a buddy who joined a very well run and happy regional airline thread his way the many furloughs that happened post successive acquisitions of that airline by the majors.
He lived in the same house and drove the same car he had the day he first was hired and he had them both the day he became a 767 Captain and Training Captain flying to Europe from the United States.
His fellows who lived it up on their fat paychecks and bought fancy houses, fancy autos, fancy boats, and maintained costly girlfriends and ex-wives......most went bankrupt during the many down turns.
Look around you fellows.....how long can you hold out and what are you going to do if it all goes pear shaped and not at all like you have hopes for it going?
That also applies to the Management....this Work Action is costing them as well.
What is it worth to them to break the Union?
Will that work to their future benefit?
That might very well be part of their calculations.
Otherwise, making a reasonable offer should have been the first step rather than the last.
Evidence suggests that reasonable offer was not and has not been made or the Work Action would not have happened and would not be on-going.
What is their bottom line that they cannot afford to cross?
They know what it is as they can make projections and have considered the various costs both short term and long term.
Unless it is all about ego which in business is not the path to success.
From the sounds of the many posts about this situation it appears to me the Pilots and other employees have a bonafide concern about pay and working conditions that the company needs to address.
There I wuz thinking "loyalty" was supposed to be a two way street.....now what did I get wrong in that concept?
The old saw about "You get what you pay for!" rings a bell somehow.
When two sides take up opposing positions on matters then loyalty goes out the door and compromise becomes a competition to see how much each side can get and how much each side does not have to give up.
In time this Strike shall come to an end....they all do at some point with a less than happy outcome usually.
The side with the deepest pockets is going to prevail (I was going to use the word "win" but there are no winners in a Strike).
When the mortgage payments, car payments, alimony payments, kid's dental braces and school fees, and other expenses come due....then some serious contemplation shall take place among the Strikers.
Those who have been careful with their spending will be able to weather this storm....the others are going to be in the Hurt Locker.
How much are you willing to lose in this horse trade?
I watched a buddy who joined a very well run and happy regional airline thread his way the many furloughs that happened post successive acquisitions of that airline by the majors.
He lived in the same house and drove the same car he had the day he first was hired and he had them both the day he became a 767 Captain and Training Captain flying to Europe from the United States.
His fellows who lived it up on their fat paychecks and bought fancy houses, fancy autos, fancy boats, and maintained costly girlfriends and ex-wives......most went bankrupt during the many down turns.
Look around you fellows.....how long can you hold out and what are you going to do if it all goes pear shaped and not at all like you have hopes for it going?
That also applies to the Management....this Work Action is costing them as well.
What is it worth to them to break the Union?
Will that work to their future benefit?
That might very well be part of their calculations.
Otherwise, making a reasonable offer should have been the first step rather than the last.
Evidence suggests that reasonable offer was not and has not been made or the Work Action would not have happened and would not be on-going.
What is their bottom line that they cannot afford to cross?
They know what it is as they can make projections and have considered the various costs both short term and long term.
Unless it is all about ego which in business is not the path to success.
From the sounds of the many posts about this situation it appears to me the Pilots and other employees have a bonafide concern about pay and working conditions that the company needs to address.
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The pressure from the DfT and MCA on the management to come to a speedy conclusion of this debacle will be a major factor - this isn't a factory making stuff, it is a national UK rescue service that can't afford to be offline or people will die.
No-one, even the greediest management, wants that outcome because the ensuing public enquiry will ask very pointed questions and some people might face allegations of corporate manslaughter.
No-one, even the greediest management, wants that outcome because the ensuing public enquiry will ask very pointed questions and some people might face allegations of corporate manslaughter.
Originally Posted by [email protected]
The pressure from the DfT and MCA on the management to come to a speedy conclusion of this debacle will be a major factor - this isn't a factory making stuff, it is a national UK rescue service that can't afford to be offline or people will die.
No-one, even the greediest management, wants that outcome because the ensuing public enquiry will ask very pointed questions and some people might face allegations of corporate manslaughter.
No-one, even the greediest management, wants that outcome because the ensuing public enquiry will ask very pointed questions and some people might face allegations of corporate manslaughter.
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