EC-130 Crash California
So I guess it depends on the organization. The one I was involved with, the 2nd pilot was a rated pilot with a 135 checkride in the aircraft---either pilot could have flown the flight. Yes they were traiend on 2 pilot operations under our SOP. One would be polt flying, the other was PNF just like the airlines.
I canot speak for the operator involved in this accident as I do not know.
I canot speak for the operator involved in this accident as I do not know.
I remember one operator complaining that most his VIP charter were systematically requesting a twin engine heli, while they were satisfied with a single pilot crew, he was making the point that a single engine heli with a dual crew was actually safer.
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it makes perfect sense to me, when I get the family onboard, I always try to have somebody in the copilot seat that can land the aircraft in case I get suddenly disabled.
I remember one operator complaining that most his VIP charter were systematically requesting a twin engine heli, while they were satisfied with a single pilot crew, he was making the point that a single engine heli with a dual crew was actually safer.
I remember one operator complaining that most his VIP charter were systematically requesting a twin engine heli, while they were satisfied with a single pilot crew, he was making the point that a single engine heli with a dual crew was actually safer.
Damn it, I just transferred $8000 to an account so I could collect my lottery winnings. I haven’t heard from them since the transfer it must have been this banker flying to get my winings.
How am I going to get my 20mil now?
How am I going to get my 20mil now?
Last edited by SLFMS; 14th Feb 2024 at 04:27.
For those interested, here's a report on pilot incapacitaion: "It is noteworthy that 6 out of 16 episodes were attributed to psychiatric causes and another 5 were the result of nonspecific symptoms that may have had psychiatric contributing factors."
Last edited by JimEli; 14th Feb 2024 at 13:13. Reason: added quote
My experience of two-pilot light helo charters is that its driven by a complete absence of understanding of flight safety by the customer who demands it.
Some companies' policy requires their staff to be flown by two pilots and some indiciduals insist on it simply based on the false and unsubstantiated assumption that two must be safer than one. In all the flights I was involved in the 'other' pilot was a fully qualified line pilot just like the Captain but of course neither were trained or experienced in two-pilot ops, and on a couple of occasions there were CRM issues (one so serious that I declined to operate) that significantly compromised flight safety. Putting two single-pilot pilots together is a recipe for trouble and imho completely unacceptable. Include a non-pilot ground handler by all means, just not two one-man band pilots.
God knows I've seen the other side too, in airlines even after extensive CRM and human factors training many ex fast jet pilots (oddly never the Navy ones...) have been utter nightmares to fly with - persisting in being a one-man-band and refusing to include the copilot in a meaningful way.
By all means include a suitable ground handler - but never another single-pilot pilot.
Some companies' policy requires their staff to be flown by two pilots and some indiciduals insist on it simply based on the false and unsubstantiated assumption that two must be safer than one. In all the flights I was involved in the 'other' pilot was a fully qualified line pilot just like the Captain but of course neither were trained or experienced in two-pilot ops, and on a couple of occasions there were CRM issues (one so serious that I declined to operate) that significantly compromised flight safety. Putting two single-pilot pilots together is a recipe for trouble and imho completely unacceptable. Include a non-pilot ground handler by all means, just not two one-man band pilots.
God knows I've seen the other side too, in airlines even after extensive CRM and human factors training many ex fast jet pilots (oddly never the Navy ones...) have been utter nightmares to fly with - persisting in being a one-man-band and refusing to include the copilot in a meaningful way.
By all means include a suitable ground handler - but never another single-pilot pilot.
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Pilots were 22 and 25.
They were trying to do their job and please the employer.
Did they have any clues about the huge risk involved ?
Scudding at low level at night is playing Russian roulette.
So many got the same situation, trying to please and progress without the knowledge of what was coming.
There is no real night training done in reality, you see the same thing in general aviation.
Companies should have very strict minimum for nights, you don`t scud, but money is always more important.
I am sure the next step for them is going to be interesting...
They were trying to do their job and please the employer.
Did they have any clues about the huge risk involved ?
Scudding at low level at night is playing Russian roulette.
So many got the same situation, trying to please and progress without the knowledge of what was coming.
There is no real night training done in reality, you see the same thing in general aviation.
Companies should have very strict minimum for nights, you don`t scud, but money is always more important.
I am sure the next step for them is going to be interesting...
For those going on about "sandbags" and "dual controls" etc. A second pilot is not there to take over in case of incapacitition, although he could I suppose. He is there to assist with the workload---navigation, radios, terrain avoidance, weather decisions, and CRM.....
I am reminded of the joke about going fishing with Mormons---always invite 2 of them, that way they will not drink your beer, they watch out for each other.
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4 years and a few days past the N72EX accident. How quickly we forget?
1. N72EX
This was gross pilot incompetence. Fully qualified (in terms of license, recency) IFR-rated pilot and instructor, in a full IFR machine. Refusing or unable to mentally transition from VFR to IFR flying. Or simply hand the controls to George. I mean, it can't be that when tomorrow I take Lufthansa from Frankfurt to Munich, the airliner crashes. And people say, really bad, they entered cloud, and didn't they remember there was 100 years ago this pilot who also suffered spatial disorientation.
It is simply unacceptable that so many commercially rated pilots betray their employers by not being able to display basic skills.
2. Synthetic Vision
I made this argument before on these pages, I reckon maybe exactly 4 years ago:
- A current IFR rated pilot should be able to keep the blue side up, even without external visual cues, based on a standard 6-pack.
- We agree that a regular VFR pilot may struggle to integrate the information from the 6-pack into a mental picture and might suffer from spatial disorientation if no external visual cues.
- That same regular VFR pilot again is very much able to keep the sunny side up, if provided with external visual cues. In doing so they look at a screen the size of their cockpit window (the "windscreen").
- If those transparencies were replaced by a computer screen of the same size, displaying the outside world, our regular VFR pilot would equally have no difficulties.
All the above I hope is generally accepted. My point therefore is: What is the minimum size of that computer screen, so that the pilot's brain perceives the external visual cues needed to effortlessly maintain orientation in space?
Those who answer "never" will struggle to explain why things miraculously fall into place, once the computer screen reaches the same size as the windscreen. Clearly, there is a tipping point. It may be larger than the display size of a GI275, but smaller than "full screen" (ie, size of the windscreen).
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https://abcnews.go.com/amp/US/wireSt...pter-107246498
I hate when the news media invokes night/weather as the cause of the crash. Operational control, management guidance, regulatory negligence. Do we as an industry really expect a couple of young R44 tour/instructor pilots to have the experience skill and judgement to attempt a night marginal weather flight through the mountains? Did anyone at Orbic have confidence that they'd be able to turn around and come home if things got dicey? And on what basis?
Looks like that B4 had a Garmin 430 and an iPad, plus that ancient sixpack, not that I think better instrumentation would have made any difference here at their level of relevant experience.
To an earlier question, no commercial operator I know in Canada flies a VFR machine with two pilots.
I hate when the news media invokes night/weather as the cause of the crash. Operational control, management guidance, regulatory negligence. Do we as an industry really expect a couple of young R44 tour/instructor pilots to have the experience skill and judgement to attempt a night marginal weather flight through the mountains? Did anyone at Orbic have confidence that they'd be able to turn around and come home if things got dicey? And on what basis?
Looks like that B4 had a Garmin 430 and an iPad, plus that ancient sixpack, not that I think better instrumentation would have made any difference here at their level of relevant experience.
To an earlier question, no commercial operator I know in Canada flies a VFR machine with two pilots.
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It will come out in the NTSB report, of course, but I'd bet that the "safety pilot" in the EC130 was a freshly-rated pilot (perhaps not even IFR-rated) who was going along for the experience. Following roads is not always a guarantee of a safe arrival. Quick story: Once, back in the 1980's, very early in my career as a 135 pilot, I had to take a late-night trip from NYC to Atlantic City, New Jersey. Believe it or not, there is a lot of *nothing* in the middle of New Jersey. The weather was not great. My plan was to follow the Garden State Parkway, not the New Jersey Turnpike which would have made the trip longer. Long story short, there were big stretches of the "GSP" where there were *NO* cars. We're talking black, BLACK flying. I realized too late that I'd made the wrong choice and was in trouble. Holy crap, it was scary. And it became basically a low-level IFR flight until the lights of Atlantic City finally came into view. Still gives me shivers just thinking back on it. So I understand what those two boys in the EC130 were going through. Sadly, their flight ended more tragically than mine - mostly because I got lucky and they didn't, I suppose. Sometimes we pilots rely too much on luck.
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The FAA Airmen Registry shows both deceased pilots as commercial/instrument rated with 1st class medicals.
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it makes perfect sense to me, when I get the family onboard, I always try to have somebody in the copilot seat that can land the aircraft in case I get suddenly disabled.
I remember one operator complaining that most his VIP charter were systematically requesting a twin engine heli, while they were satisfied with a single pilot crew, he was making the point that a single engine heli with a dual crew was actually safer.
I remember one operator complaining that most his VIP charter were systematically requesting a twin engine heli, while they were satisfied with a single pilot crew, he was making the point that a single engine heli with a dual crew was actually safer.
Did that B4 have a rad alt? I wouldn't fly at night without one.
It will come out in the NTSB report, of course, but I'd bet that the "safety pilot" in the EC130 was a freshly-rated pilot (perhaps not even IFR-rated) who was going along for the experience. Following roads is not always a guarantee of a safe arrival. Quick story: Once, back in the 1980's, very early in my career as a 135 pilot, I had to take a late-night trip from NYC to Atlantic City, New Jersey. Believe it or not, there is a lot of *nothing* in the middle of New Jersey. The weather was not great. My plan was to follow the Garden State Parkway, not the New Jersey Turnpike which would have made the trip longer. Long story short, there were big stretches of the "GSP" where there were *NO* cars. We're talking black, BLACK flying. I realized too late that I'd made the wrong choice and was in trouble. Holy crap, it was scary. And it became basically a low-level IFR flight until the lights of Atlantic City finally came into view. Still gives me shivers just thinking back on it. So I understand what those two boys in the EC130 were going through. Sadly, their flight ended more tragically than mine - mostly because I got lucky and they didn't, I suppose. Sometimes we pilots rely too much on luck.
If there's one shortcoming to our training, its not teaching us to distinguish between VFR night and IFR night, or to simply look at the route on our charts and realize, "Gee, this area hear could easily turn into a black hole, I probably shouldn't do this flight, unless I can just do it all IFR".