UK AAIB(H) January 2024 Welshpool: Passenger given control of helicopter before crash
With that horrid T-bar arrangement in the R22, you can still reach up to grab your side of the cyclic if you are in the RHS or LHS or grab the centre bar if you are in the LHS - no excuses.
The report states the passenger was in the RHS.
Originally Posted by [email protected]
With that horrid T-bar arrangement in the R22, you can still reach up to grab your side of the cyclic if you are in the RHS or LHS or grab the centre bar if you are in the LHS - no excuses.
Originally Posted by [email protected]
With that horrid T-bar arrangement in the R22, you can still reach up to grab your side of the cyclic if you are in the RHS or LHS or grab the centre bar if you are in the LHS - no excuses.
I met nobody ever who could manage the cyclic alone in a 22 on their first try, and I had the privilege to fly with some really competent people who picked everything up really quickly. That means you’re always going to be having a wild ride, and let’s face it there is no other way to learn, any more than you can teach someone how to ride a bicycle in a you tube video.
There are rare cases where students actively do the wrong thing, and/or stop you as the instructor doing the right thing. I definitely had a couple of scary moments. The rarity of these sort of incidents (rollovers on trial lessons) could point to crappy instruction, or possibly to how everyone is to some extent riding their luck. Sometimes, as in this case, and in the case you quoted with the Staff Officer, it doesn’t work out. No biggie, no life changing injuries, and one destroyed helicopter. Embarrassing yes, but move along, nothing to see here. Spare a thought for the poor instructor probably near the beginning of his career, who will likely spend the next few months waking up in a cold sweat and wondering if he’s still got a job. If he has, then he’ll be a bit older and a bit wiser, and maybe grieve for his lost membership of the exclusive club of helicopter pilots that have never made a mistake.
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WMF - I have ended up in an R22 on its side in a field myself due to a last minute unexpected control input from a 'student' at the end of a flare recovery to the hover.
It was poor instruction on my part, not bad luck, and I have never fought shy of admitting that - acknowledging where you have f&&&ed up is a step on the road to becoming a better instructor.
If inexperienced instructors aren't capable of retaining control of the aircraft on trial lessons, then perhaps they shouldn't be doing them.
And you'll probably tell me this is the harsh reality of civilian flying instruction and that I was just fortunate to have put myself through the beasting that was Military Flying Training in the 80s as I didn't have to pay for it myself.
It was poor instruction on my part, not bad luck, and I have never fought shy of admitting that - acknowledging where you have f&&&ed up is a step on the road to becoming a better instructor.
If inexperienced instructors aren't capable of retaining control of the aircraft on trial lessons, then perhaps they shouldn't be doing them.
And you'll probably tell me this is the harsh reality of civilian flying instruction and that I was just fortunate to have put myself through the beasting that was Military Flying Training in the 80s as I didn't have to pay for it myself.
Crab, I wouldn't dream of criticising you for that incident any more than I would criticise the gentleman from Welshpool. From a practical point of view any accident during an instructional flight is technically, and sometimes largely or even wholly the instructors fault. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't acknowledge some role for chance in your fate when it's appropriate. Without the benefit of more detailed knowledge, I'm prepared to acknowledge the role of chance in the Welshpool incident, and knowing you by reputation only, I would grant you the same courtesy.
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I stumbled across this report of the loss of a Bell 47G2, VH-KHL, at Moorabbin in Australia back in 1989, and it reminded me of the R22 accident being discussed in this thread:
https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications.../aair198901526
Another trial instructional flight. Helicopter was placed in a hover and passenger was invited to attempt to control the helicopter by use of the anti-torque pedals and the cyclic control. The passenger overcontrolled the aircraft and pilot (who wasn't rated as an instructor) wasn't able to recover control in time. Both pilot and passenger were seriously injured according to the report. Hope they both fully recovered.
https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications.../aair198901526
Another trial instructional flight. Helicopter was placed in a hover and passenger was invited to attempt to control the helicopter by use of the anti-torque pedals and the cyclic control. The passenger overcontrolled the aircraft and pilot (who wasn't rated as an instructor) wasn't able to recover control in time. Both pilot and passenger were seriously injured according to the report. Hope they both fully recovered.
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I think that the issue, certainly as regards "trial lessons" is one of time and adjustment.
As part of a PPL syllabus (or any other kind of ab-initio) the instructor will have time to get to know the student a little, will brief them several times and the initial flights will build up to hands-on hovering over a number of flights - with hovering taking place only when the instructor is comfortable and after the student will have had a certain amount of time to get used to being in the air and to handing over the controls.
For a trial lesson this is not the case. The instructor will likely have spent little or no time with the student - in some cases they've never met before they are loaded rotors running having been "briefed" by someone in the ops office.
The student will have had little or no time to get used to being in the air and the instructor will have little time to get the feel of the student or assess how they respond during control exchange.
For a 30 min trial lesson often advertised as including trying hovering, there is pressure on both the instructor and the student.
Is it a surprise when it goes wrong?
Yes the responsibility lies with the commander of the aircraft but i think in the case of trial lessons they are often being despatched with a piece of cheese that already has more holes in it than necessary or reasonable.
OH
As part of a PPL syllabus (or any other kind of ab-initio) the instructor will have time to get to know the student a little, will brief them several times and the initial flights will build up to hands-on hovering over a number of flights - with hovering taking place only when the instructor is comfortable and after the student will have had a certain amount of time to get used to being in the air and to handing over the controls.
For a trial lesson this is not the case. The instructor will likely have spent little or no time with the student - in some cases they've never met before they are loaded rotors running having been "briefed" by someone in the ops office.
The student will have had little or no time to get used to being in the air and the instructor will have little time to get the feel of the student or assess how they respond during control exchange.
For a 30 min trial lesson often advertised as including trying hovering, there is pressure on both the instructor and the student.
Is it a surprise when it goes wrong?
Yes the responsibility lies with the commander of the aircraft but i think in the case of trial lessons they are often being despatched with a piece of cheese that already has more holes in it than necessary or reasonable.
OH
I met nobody ever who could manage the cyclic alone in a 22 on their first try, and I had the privilege to fly with some really competent people who picked everything up really quickly. That means you’re always going to be having a wild ride, and let’s face it there is no other way to learn, any more than you can teach someone how to ride a bicycle in a you tube video.
Did a trial lesson with a gent whose day job was digging ditches in JCBs. He very quickly had all three controls for most of the 30 minute trial lesson, and had a half decent stab at a hover.
But if someone spends all day looking outside of their work environment and manipulating a remote bucket, I suppose it was to be expected.
Even so, I always had my hands and feet very close to the controls, and even with this chap,
But if someone spends all day looking outside of their work environment and manipulating a remote bucket, I suppose it was to be expected.
Even so, I always had my hands and feet very close to the controls, and even with this chap,
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On a trial flight, or even Effects of Controls in the hover, the first control to master is the pedals alone. If you cannot make it point at something and keep it there, you will never be able to hover.
Then they get collective alone. Work out how small a movement is needed to change, or hold, a height.
If the student is doing well on this, give them both, but ensure that the first thing they think about is MAKE IT POINT.
Bloggs will lose it many times and you will recover it.
Then the cyclic is demonstrated, using the tip of one finger to control the hover. Make sure Bloggs is looking outside, not at the cyclic. Stress how important it is to keep the picture FLAT and held at a particular spot in the windscreen. If it moves, fix it. Doesn't matter if he drifts while fixing it, the important item to learn here is not ground position, but ATTITUDE CONTROL.
When Bloggs is on all 3, the mantra is MAKE IT POINT! KEEP IT FLAT! Then fix the height.
Back in 1993, I was fortunate enough to be asked to take a rather well-known movie star for a lesson. He already held fixed-wing qualifications and owned his own warbird and jet. The upper air work was easy, as the chopper behaves like an airplane in forward flight. The fun began when we came back down for some hovering. He was getting better at the attitude control, but wasn't a Top Gun on his first go.
Subsequently he got his full licence and did his own chopper stunts in his films.
Then they get collective alone. Work out how small a movement is needed to change, or hold, a height.
If the student is doing well on this, give them both, but ensure that the first thing they think about is MAKE IT POINT.
Bloggs will lose it many times and you will recover it.
Then the cyclic is demonstrated, using the tip of one finger to control the hover. Make sure Bloggs is looking outside, not at the cyclic. Stress how important it is to keep the picture FLAT and held at a particular spot in the windscreen. If it moves, fix it. Doesn't matter if he drifts while fixing it, the important item to learn here is not ground position, but ATTITUDE CONTROL.
When Bloggs is on all 3, the mantra is MAKE IT POINT! KEEP IT FLAT! Then fix the height.
Back in 1993, I was fortunate enough to be asked to take a rather well-known movie star for a lesson. He already held fixed-wing qualifications and owned his own warbird and jet. The upper air work was easy, as the chopper behaves like an airplane in forward flight. The fun began when we came back down for some hovering. He was getting better at the attitude control, but wasn't a Top Gun on his first go.
Subsequently he got his full licence and did his own chopper stunts in his films.
Have to disagree AC - cyclic first because everything stems from recognising, holding and recovering to the hover attitude.
Then collective to recognise height references, then pedals for heading
Single control first then cyclic and collective, then collective and pedals and finally all 3.
Lightly following through on whichever control/s the student is manipulating is where your hands and feet need to be
Then collective to recognise height references, then pedals for heading
Single control first then cyclic and collective, then collective and pedals and finally all 3.
Lightly following through on whichever control/s the student is manipulating is where your hands and feet need to be
Crab, when Bloggs loses it, starts to spin and then the attitude begins to wobble, the first thing to do is stop the spin.The secondary effect of pedal will further disturb the attitude, but once the spin stops, the attitude can be made flat again.
Then fix the height. If Bloggs jerks the lever, the secondary effects make him spin and change attitude. Giving him lever and cyclic is difficult because of the secondary effects of lever. Lever and pedals is the better way to build up.
Remember the principles of instruction:
Go from easy to difficult
From known to unknown
At the beginning, start with the easy ones, pedal alone and then collective alone. Confidence builders. Cyclic first will dishearten the student right from the start when they don't pick it up instantly. Everybody wants instant gratification. But nearly every student will get a confidence boost from working the pedals alone, then lever alone, then pedals and lever. When they are used to looking to the distance for the directional reference, and peripheral vision for height, they are prepared to look for the hover attitude.
When we went through air force training on Hueys, nobody mentioned a hover attitude - it was "Stop moving!" When I came back to choppers after years of instructing on jets, the method had changed to "hover attitude". Unconsciously, that was what we had eventually done, but hearing it said in the classroom was a light coming on - "Why didn't they say that in the first place?"
Then fix the height. If Bloggs jerks the lever, the secondary effects make him spin and change attitude. Giving him lever and cyclic is difficult because of the secondary effects of lever. Lever and pedals is the better way to build up.
Remember the principles of instruction:
Go from easy to difficult
From known to unknown
At the beginning, start with the easy ones, pedal alone and then collective alone. Confidence builders. Cyclic first will dishearten the student right from the start when they don't pick it up instantly. Everybody wants instant gratification. But nearly every student will get a confidence boost from working the pedals alone, then lever alone, then pedals and lever. When they are used to looking to the distance for the directional reference, and peripheral vision for height, they are prepared to look for the hover attitude.
When we went through air force training on Hueys, nobody mentioned a hover attitude - it was "Stop moving!" When I came back to choppers after years of instructing on jets, the method had changed to "hover attitude". Unconsciously, that was what we had eventually done, but hearing it said in the classroom was a light coming on - "Why didn't they say that in the first place?"
