Bristow and the Dutch SAR Coastguard contract, The Netherlands. Updates, etc....
Idle,
That's one senator - there were noises of discontent coming from senators about CHC's performance in the past, and it makes no material impact other than tomorrows fish and chip wrapper.
We can all quote each others posts - you are proving my point for me - thanks. You put in a bid - it didn't win. You can cry all you like on PPrune about how you should of, but it's too late - don't waste your heartbeats on something you're not going to change.
A better use of heartbeats would be a look in the mirror and figuring out how to attack the contact in 8 years.
That's one senator - there were noises of discontent coming from senators about CHC's performance in the past, and it makes no material impact other than tomorrows fish and chip wrapper.
it is very clear CHC are now trying to run the race after its finished.
A better use of heartbeats would be a look in the mirror and figuring out how to attack the contact in 8 years.
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No skin in the game for me. Interested in discussing what appears to be a very odd government decision (not the first, certainly wont be the last) but guess this isn't the place 
It is not unknown to have a process that is judged on capability at several stages and then arrive at a final stage where the 'preferred bidders' are all technically capable. This is when price enters the field of play. Or sometimes there is only one preferred bidder. There have been interesting examples in the UK processes.
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
If their complaint about not enough seats is regarding the fire team then it is valid, if it is about casualties, as P3 says, it is not.
Unless you have a MIRG team stationed at every SAR base, of course you are going to have to fly somewhere else to pick them up - that's a Dutch Fire Service issue not Bristow.
Since the previous contract had Dauphins without proper kit for over water night SAR for much of it, the Dutch should probably count themselves lucky.
it does seem like Bristow have stretched themselves a bit thin with aircraft though and AFAIK the impending rear crew shortage still needs to be addressed.
Unless you have a MIRG team stationed at every SAR base, of course you are going to have to fly somewhere else to pick them up - that's a Dutch Fire Service issue not Bristow.
Since the previous contract had Dauphins without proper kit for over water night SAR for much of it, the Dutch should probably count themselves lucky.
it does seem like Bristow have stretched themselves a bit thin with aircraft though and AFAIK the impending rear crew shortage still needs to be addressed.
I'm interested in going SAR as Technical Crew, I've seen recent adverts for winch paramedics so do you reckon we'll be seeing winch op adverts soon?
I hear BHL have other woes in NL. No Part 145 approval, so contracting BelAir. Now no backup aircraft (due Base Maintenance).
Last edited by 212man; 14th Aug 2023 at 10:38.
Ah... but Ireland isn't just SAR... It's SAR and HEMS, which doesn't have the alleviations UK has. Then, when all of the wide-ranging requirements have to be embodied on a single type, there will be clear blue water between a 92 and a 189. And is a 189 faster than a 92 when you hang sensors and hoists of it? errr, no.
Crab. could you expand on this? "and AFAIK the impending rear crew shortage still needs to be addressed."
I'm interested in going SAR as Technical Crew, I've seen recent adverts for winch paramedics so do you reckon we'll be seeing winch op adverts soon?
I'm interested in going SAR as Technical Crew, I've seen recent adverts for winch paramedics so do you reckon we'll be seeing winch op adverts soon?
A number of winchmen moved up to winch op positions which is why Bristow were recruiting paramedics to train as winchmen - I believe this has worked generally due to very careful selection and good training.
But, Bristow were supposed to create a training school - expensive stuff so it didn't happen - and now they are running out of ex-mil experience to call on.
The aspiration, as I understand it, is to create that training school at Lee on Solent which would be excellent but expensive.
If they don't spend the money, they will run out of technical rearcrew in the new UK contract - not to mention having other, new contracts to service.
They have such a wealth of rearcrew training expertise inherited from the mil that it seems a no-brainer to train ab-initio winchmen and winch ops, not only for UK SAR but the other contracts around the world.
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
Bristow inherited a sizeable number of very professional, very well trained rearcrew (winchmen and winch Ops) from the RAF and RN when they took the contract - but a number of those guys were on the mature side and injury, retirement, illness etc gives a natural wastage.
A number of winchmen moved up to winch op positions which is why Bristow were recruiting paramedics to train as winchmen - I believe this has worked generally due to very careful selection and good training.
But, Bristow were supposed to create a training school - expensive stuff so it didn't happen - and now they are running out of ex-mil experience to call on.
The aspiration, as I understand it, is to create that training school at Lee on Solent which would be excellent but expensive.
If they don't spend the money, they will run out of technical rearcrew in the new UK contract - not to mention having other, new contracts to service.
They have such a wealth of rearcrew training expertise inherited from the mil that it seems a no-brainer to train ab-initio winchmen and winch ops, not only for UK SAR but the other contracts around the world.
A number of winchmen moved up to winch op positions which is why Bristow were recruiting paramedics to train as winchmen - I believe this has worked generally due to very careful selection and good training.
But, Bristow were supposed to create a training school - expensive stuff so it didn't happen - and now they are running out of ex-mil experience to call on.
The aspiration, as I understand it, is to create that training school at Lee on Solent which would be excellent but expensive.
If they don't spend the money, they will run out of technical rearcrew in the new UK contract - not to mention having other, new contracts to service.
They have such a wealth of rearcrew training expertise inherited from the mil that it seems a no-brainer to train ab-initio winchmen and winch ops, not only for UK SAR but the other contracts around the world.
Thanks Crab, I'll be keeping my eyes peeled and hopefully be seeing some progress on this soon. I'd like to think with my rearcrew experience so far that I'd stand a good chance at an ab initio Winch Op position. Does anyone know what Bristow are like to work for? I've heard things like they aren't great at understanding family circumstances/commitments, and that within SAR you are expected to cover at any UK base? Don't know how true what I've heard it is. But I have learnt in life that what you do is not as important as who you do it for!
Everyone wants to work at the 'nice' bases which are less remote so it is first come first served in that respect - if you are not prepared for a couple of years of working away like that then probably not worth joining.
The remote bases have to be staffed (some people love it at them) so the contract requirements will inevitably come before family issues - I'm sure with certain exceptions. Sickness and injury inevitably mean some people will have to fill in on a temporary basis.
What Bristow have to provide is aircraft and crew to meet the contract - just like when it was mostly mil SAR - the only difference being that ordering someone has now mostly been replaced by offering suitable monetary reward for some of those hardships.
Good luck.
The remote bases have to be staffed (some people love it at them) so the contract requirements will inevitably come before family issues - I'm sure with certain exceptions. Sickness and injury inevitably mean some people will have to fill in on a temporary basis.
What Bristow have to provide is aircraft and crew to meet the contract - just like when it was mostly mil SAR - the only difference being that ordering someone has now mostly been replaced by offering suitable monetary reward for some of those hardships.
Good luck.
78 came over in Managed Transition but there were already many ex-mil working for BHL and CHC. Of the 78, I think about half were rear-crew but I don't have exact numbers for the split.
The training plan as I understand it was that training on S-92A took place in Stornoway and training on the AW189 at Inverness. Those bases would have the spare/training 11th aircraft of each type for that purpose and those bases would provide the opportunities for suitably challenging training on wets and mountains.
Although the Stornoway thing happened, the rest was undermined by the whole AW189 carry on that took over 4 years to sort but the Inverness thing never happened and training was mainly at Lee-on-Solent. By the time the AW189 situation was resolving itself, adverts were appearing for people to train as rearcrew. Then in early 2021, Edition 3 of CAP 999 appeared with a major addition to Chapter 4 for the training standards for rearcrew (Technical Crew Members, TCM) and an operator-based accreditation procedure, stopping short of licensing.
The Stornoway S-92A spare/training aircraft now belongs to CHC at Tromso and the AW189 spare/training aircraft, plus one other, is now on the Kustwacht NL contract. Not sure where that leaves the training capacity. Synthetics only take you so far.
With the musical chairs that have taken place within the BHL SAR management recently, one might easily become concerned that this part of the big picture could become overlooked. Go on, surprise us Bristow!
The training plan as I understand it was that training on S-92A took place in Stornoway and training on the AW189 at Inverness. Those bases would have the spare/training 11th aircraft of each type for that purpose and those bases would provide the opportunities for suitably challenging training on wets and mountains.
Although the Stornoway thing happened, the rest was undermined by the whole AW189 carry on that took over 4 years to sort but the Inverness thing never happened and training was mainly at Lee-on-Solent. By the time the AW189 situation was resolving itself, adverts were appearing for people to train as rearcrew. Then in early 2021, Edition 3 of CAP 999 appeared with a major addition to Chapter 4 for the training standards for rearcrew (Technical Crew Members, TCM) and an operator-based accreditation procedure, stopping short of licensing.
The Stornoway S-92A spare/training aircraft now belongs to CHC at Tromso and the AW189 spare/training aircraft, plus one other, is now on the Kustwacht NL contract. Not sure where that leaves the training capacity. Synthetics only take you so far.
With the musical chairs that have taken place within the BHL SAR management recently, one might easily become concerned that this part of the big picture could become overlooked. Go on, surprise us Bristow!
Ah... but Ireland isn't just SAR... It's SAR and HEMS, which doesn't have the alleviations UK has. Then, when all of the wide-ranging requirements have to be embodied on a single type, there will be clear blue water between a 92 and a 189. And is a 189 faster than a 92 when you hang sensors and hoists of it? errr, no.
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
Bristow inherited a sizeable number of very professional, very well trained rearcrew (winchmen and winch Ops) from the RAF and RN when they took the contract - but a number of those guys were on the mature side and injury, retirement, illness etc gives a natural wastage.
A number of winchmen moved up to winch op positions which is why Bristow were recruiting paramedics to train as winchmen - I believe this has worked generally due to very careful selection and good training.
But, Bristow were supposed to create a training school - expensive stuff so it didn't happen - and now they are running out of ex-mil experience to call on.
The aspiration, as I understand it, is to create that training school at Lee on Solent which would be excellent but expensive.
If they don't spend the money, they will run out of technical rearcrew in the new UK contract - not to mention having other, new contracts to service.
They have such a wealth of rearcrew training expertise inherited from the mil that it seems a no-brainer to train ab-initio winchmen and winch ops, not only for UK SAR but the other contracts around the world.
A number of winchmen moved up to winch op positions which is why Bristow were recruiting paramedics to train as winchmen - I believe this has worked generally due to very careful selection and good training.
But, Bristow were supposed to create a training school - expensive stuff so it didn't happen - and now they are running out of ex-mil experience to call on.
The aspiration, as I understand it, is to create that training school at Lee on Solent which would be excellent but expensive.
If they don't spend the money, they will run out of technical rearcrew in the new UK contract - not to mention having other, new contracts to service.
They have such a wealth of rearcrew training expertise inherited from the mil that it seems a no-brainer to train ab-initio winchmen and winch ops, not only for UK SAR but the other contracts around the world.
And road paras were paid much less than military winchmen/winch ops. But then TC are an irritation to regulators, who don't understand the value - as shameful as it is by BRS, they are, at least, looking at the impending problem; many other operators world wide haven't even spotted the meteor heading for the earth yet.
I said at the time of the first UK SAR contract and have said frequently since then - the Technical Crew Members are the ones who do the messy, unpleasant stuff and have constantly been undervalued by Bristow and other operators. It's what happens when pilots rule the Ops dept.
Let us hope the impending shortage worldwide forces recognition of their skills and leads to licencing and full remuneration for their excellent work.
Let us hope the impending shortage worldwide forces recognition of their skills and leads to licencing and full remuneration for their excellent work.
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As someone who has done 8 years of SAR in an 92 and 7 years in a 189 I can tell you the differences in capability is not as much as you might expect.
Can you fit more people in a 92 than a 189 yes, It’s bigger.
Can a 189 go faster than a 92, absolutely.
Does the 189 have significantly more power available through most operating weights, yes.
Is a 92 better in turbulent conditions yes.
Are the avionics and autopilot mostly better in a 189, yep.
Range wise (configured as I have flown them), there is not allot in it, both go out about as far as each other on a full tank, though the 92 might win by 10-20nm (at most).
Could you fit 15 people in the back of a 189… mmmm if you had to probably, it would not be comfortable, people sitting on people but it’s SAR, if they are going to die if you don’t then you will find a way.
Thinking about it… 8 in seats, four with their backs to the door on far side from winch, and another four between their legs. That would take you to half way across the cabin and then get the Winchman in door closed and guys on floor can spread out a bit. Getting the stretcher in with that many people on board would be a problematic… if there was a stretcher you might be better off doing that first… don’t know to be honest.
Can you fit more people in a 92 than a 189 yes, It’s bigger.
Can a 189 go faster than a 92, absolutely.
Does the 189 have significantly more power available through most operating weights, yes.
Is a 92 better in turbulent conditions yes.
Are the avionics and autopilot mostly better in a 189, yep.
Range wise (configured as I have flown them), there is not allot in it, both go out about as far as each other on a full tank, though the 92 might win by 10-20nm (at most).
Could you fit 15 people in the back of a 189… mmmm if you had to probably, it would not be comfortable, people sitting on people but it’s SAR, if they are going to die if you don’t then you will find a way.
Thinking about it… 8 in seats, four with their backs to the door on far side from winch, and another four between their legs. That would take you to half way across the cabin and then get the Winchman in door closed and guys on floor can spread out a bit. Getting the stretcher in with that many people on board would be a problematic… if there was a stretcher you might be better off doing that first… don’t know to be honest.
Thinking aloud how 3 decades ago, the USCG felt with replacing their legacy Sikorsky HH-3F Pelican with the HH-60J Jayhawk ….yes the Jayhawk modern at time, but lacked amphibious hull and pax …
Cheers
To play devil’s advocate here, I’m surprised none of the bidders proposed the EH101 if it’s all about size. You can stuff that thing full!
Why consider bid requirement, operating price, parts availability, mission system capability, performance when you can stick with status quo…
LZ
Why consider bid requirement, operating price, parts availability, mission system capability, performance when you can stick with status quo…
LZ
Tbt I saw one of the first Cormorants at Farnborough Air Show 2002. Also I saw and sat in one of the first RDAF Merlin at RIAT 2006 and Farnborough 2008 before either airframes ended up back here as Mk3 UOR. Then come Farnborough Air Show 2010, saw new RDAF Merlin. .. (RDAF Merlin’s have been the front cover photo for the 101 SAR brochures) …
Again thinking out loud: shame the Heliliner did not morph more than a test platform now museum piece, into the commercial world. But with the reduction of crews on oil rigs / increased automation and I suspect perhaps the clearance and existing pads may hav been a wee challenge for the Heliliner .
could the 101 be a good commercial SAR platform ? Or heavy downwash from the blades … cause issues…
cheers
Ask the Canadians how it was when it arrived in 2004........
AW101
To me, AW101 usefulness in SAR is mainly about HUGE distances and that is why they are in Canada and Portugal. It's in Norway solely because of the governments insistence on the ability to shift large numbers.
TCM Status and Pay
Crab and I have been like a stuck stereo record player on this subject for some time.
I can claim to have introduced myself to Bristow's UKSAR Director back in 2014 with the words, "Do you think you're paying your rearcrew enough?" a question that I repeated to her at the INV launch in 2015, so I have not been shy about raising the issue. It won't be helpful that a portion of TCM may not see the problem since most prior military leavers and some older Managed Transition will have immediate pension entitlement (AFPS75?) making them significantly more comfortable than ab initio. 
The training and accreditation advances of Edn3 of CAP 999 are only a couple of years old so it may be too early to see any long-term effects on 'the market'. However, after recent musical chairs at BHL SAR, the management appear to be MBA-ATPL-heavy in a business sector where, as Crab has often expressed plainly, all the value gets added at the end of a wire.
To me, AW101 usefulness in SAR is mainly about HUGE distances and that is why they are in Canada and Portugal. It's in Norway solely because of the governments insistence on the ability to shift large numbers.
TCM Status and Pay
Crab and I have been like a stuck stereo record player on this subject for some time.
I can claim to have introduced myself to Bristow's UKSAR Director back in 2014 with the words, "Do you think you're paying your rearcrew enough?" a question that I repeated to her at the INV launch in 2015, so I have not been shy about raising the issue. It won't be helpful that a portion of TCM may not see the problem since most prior military leavers and some older Managed Transition will have immediate pension entitlement (AFPS75?) making them significantly more comfortable than ab initio. The training and accreditation advances of Edn3 of CAP 999 are only a couple of years old so it may be too early to see any long-term effects on 'the market'. However, after recent musical chairs at BHL SAR, the management appear to be MBA-ATPL-heavy in a business sector where, as Crab has often expressed plainly, all the value gets added at the end of a wire.