Stoke Air Ambulance
Originally Posted by [email protected]
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When they describe themselves as entrepreneurs, my alarm bells start ringing....
When they describe themselves as entrepreneurs, my alarm bells start ringing....
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When you put it like that….
Amazing value. According to Dorset and Somerset’s stats they saw 2424 taskings in 2022 (with an operating cost of approx £7m), whereas UKSAR as a whole (is it 10 bases costing approx £16m each per year if they stayed on contract budget?) were tasked 2747 times.
So they are seeing almost 10 times as many taskings as your average SAR base, and for less than 50% of the cost? Is that 1/20th of the cost per tasking on average?
Is not a significant proportion of SARs budget spent on training as opposed to taskings?
Amazing value. According to Dorset and Somerset’s stats they saw 2424 taskings in 2022 (with an operating cost of approx £7m), whereas UKSAR as a whole (is it 10 bases costing approx £16m each per year if they stayed on contract budget?) were tasked 2747 times.
So they are seeing almost 10 times as many taskings as your average SAR base, and for less than 50% of the cost? Is that 1/20th of the cost per tasking on average?
Is not a significant proportion of SARs budget spent on training as opposed to taskings?
LZ
SAR absolutely have their place in the emergency response network, good job there’s still someone to do it at 0100 200’ and 1000m as you say, but if SAR responded as much as HEMS, the taxpayer would have a far bigger bill.
… particularly to the British tax payer who pay nada for HEMS, unless of course they want to voluntarily. It seems a good set up to me, leaving the public well looked after. Let HEMS do what HEMS do, and when SAR are required because HEMS can’t cope - call them in with their superior skill set and permissions so they can put their training to good practice and keep their tasking numbers up, afterall 48% of SAR taskings are >0.2nm inland.
I had used the figure back in 2018 to answer a question about the cost of SAR helicopters. 2600 jobs per year, 1800 persons assisted, estimate 1000 persons genuinely saved from death, £2m x 1000 = £2bn, which is enough to pay for both fixed and variable cost parts of the entire 10 year contract from the savings in the first year.
That's economics as opposed to the bad accounting that provides most people with a completely different answer.
(Why would a government that uses these numbers not sweep away all these "entrepreneur" blood suckers and run a state HEMS service?)
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Negative Nada according to current economic thinking. A figure of £2million, or approaching that figure, has been around for a while as the cost to the state of an accidental death. It has been used by the Crown Office, Network Rail, Health and Safety Executive, and then in 2020 during the initial engagement phase of UKSAR2G by the MCA's Assistant Economist, Katrina Eastwood, who quoted it as the Department for Transport Value of a Prevented Fatality.
I had used the figure back in 2018 to answer a question about the cost of SAR helicopters. 2600 jobs per year, 1800 persons assisted, estimate 1000 persons genuinely saved from death, £2m x 1000 = £2bn, which is enough to pay for both fixed and variable cost parts of the entire 10 year contract from the savings in the first year.
I had used the figure back in 2018 to answer a question about the cost of SAR helicopters. 2600 jobs per year, 1800 persons assisted, estimate 1000 persons genuinely saved from death, £2m x 1000 = £2bn, which is enough to pay for both fixed and variable cost parts of the entire 10 year contract from the savings in the first year.
As you say not every job is a life saved, AA UK say it’s an average of 100 jobs per day, so 36,500 jobs per year. Generally accepted that 40% of HEMS work is genuinely life threatening. That still works out at £29.2bn
SAR is obviously great value for money, but HEMS blows that out the water.
Last edited by torqueshow; 31st Jul 2023 at 06:32.
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If you let all those components of the economy die 
then it is not a good thing. 
Value of a prevented fatality, or Value of Statistical Life (VOSL) as it's known in other jurisdictions, is not a bad way to measure the economic contribution of a HEMS service. However, if the economics line up, why doesn't the UK GOV operate a nationwide service, with the synergies of a rational fleet model and centralised support, rather than leaving the role to charities all operating different types?
Value of a prevented fatality, or Value of Statistical Life (VOSL) as it's known in other jurisdictions, is not a bad way to measure the economic contribution of a HEMS service. However, if the economics line up, why doesn't the UK GOV operate a nationwide service, with the synergies of a rational fleet model and centralised support, rather than leaving the role to charities all operating different types?
Why should the UK gov operate a service at taxpayers expense when the charities are tripping over themselves to do it!
Goodness some interesting numbers being thrown around here. The £2m per life ignores the fact that most employers simply replace a lost employee. The insurance industry make often take a hit but it is separately funded. Equally the idea that HEMS saves 100 lives a day is in sharp contrast to the Sheffield study which showed that London HEMS saved 2 lives a year due to having a doctor on board. The figures are further complicated by the tremendous change in land ambulance capability and the reduction of industrial and transport trauma over the years. Heart attacks, often used as an example of lives saved, kill a third as many as in 2001. HEMS is a useful add on to the ambulance service but as with the rest of the NHS economic justification is a non starter. We do it because a civilised developed country expects the best medical care available, not because it saves money.
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Value of a prevented fatality, or Value of Statistical Life (VOSL) as it's known in other jurisdictions, is not a bad way to measure the economic contribution of a HEMS service. However, if the economics line up, why doesn't the UK GOV operate a nationwide service, with the synergies of a rational fleet model and centralised support, rather than leaving the role to charities all operating different types?
Last edited by jimf671; 1st Aug 2023 at 16:02.
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However, if the economics line up, why doesn't the UK GOV operate a nationwide service, with the synergies of a rational fleet model and centralised support, rather than leaving the role to charities all operating different types?
Some are not happy at the idea of using such figures. One well known Austrian rescuer that I discussed this with was absolutely horrified at the idea of putting financial values against human life. However, I have always found this arithmetic useful for shutting up fascists, neolibs and other assorted nutters.
Last edited by jimf671; 1st Aug 2023 at 16:11.
The NHS and ambulance services are already in a massive crisis and can't fund what they're already committed to.
The existing AA operators are, largely, doing a good job - albeit with some discussions about personalities and value for money. (I think that a little more robust handling by the charities commission would be helpful on some operations).
People are choosing to support them.
The NHS has neither the money or the expertise to take on AA and if the government tried to impose it there would be outcry from the public about taking over "their" much loved Air Ambulances.
Having seen the personalities and inefficiencies at work in both the charity AA sector and the NHS I'm certain that we're better off with the status quo than anything that could be provided by .gov.uk
Some are not happy at the idea of using such figure. One well known Austrian rescuer that I discussed this with was absolutely horrified at the idea of putting financial values against human life. However, I have always found this arithmetic useful for shutting up fascists, neolibs and other assorted nutters.
