Westland 30: threads merged
Savoia noted above;
I think that your observations identify precisely why this product failed! It also identifies why Westland failed to garner any portion of the modern commercial marketplace; as they delivered a product that failed to perform in any aspect of value in commercial helicopter operation. Sadly, it can be considered a marker in the decline and ultimate end of this organisations viability to ever play in the sector, at a time when their competitors delivered machines with increasing capability and performance in a market that was enjoying immense global sales.
Poor management and the lack of understanding of the demands and realities of commercial helicopter operations drove their demise in this sector. This was a company that did not evolve with the times, nor develop their internal business strategies, products or product support capabilities. Companies succeed by developing and supporting products their customers want and can market - this one wildly missed the mark as a third rate product, that failed to perform in a single capability.
I don't think they were ever missed.
In my retrospection of the WG30 I am prepared to be one of the few who believed this project possessed the potential to reinvigorate Westland's balance sheets by serving as a catalyst for an effective civilian revenue stream.
The craft's Achilles Heel, as we know, was its underwhelming performance in practically all areas; range, power, operating cost and doubtless too Westland's technical support. However, the potentially 22 place accommodation, even if reduced, as well as the dimensions and layout of the passenger cabin, gave it, in my view, the potential to succeed - had the aforementioned flaws been avoided/overcome.
The craft's Achilles Heel, as we know, was its underwhelming performance in practically all areas; range, power, operating cost and doubtless too Westland's technical support. However, the potentially 22 place accommodation, even if reduced, as well as the dimensions and layout of the passenger cabin, gave it, in my view, the potential to succeed - had the aforementioned flaws been avoided/overcome.
Poor management and the lack of understanding of the demands and realities of commercial helicopter operations drove their demise in this sector. This was a company that did not evolve with the times, nor develop their internal business strategies, products or product support capabilities. Companies succeed by developing and supporting products their customers want and can market - this one wildly missed the mark as a third rate product, that failed to perform in a single capability.
I don't think they were ever missed.
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Cyclic
Hit the nail on the head there! As a typical experience I can relate as follows.
A long time ago (when I had hair - a VERY long time ago!) I was one of the first LAE's in UK to gain a type rating on the Gazelle (SA341). I thought it was the killer of a machine from a maintenance standpoint - and streets ahead of its contemporaries at the time - FH1100, J/R, H500. Clever bits of (English) design, like the vernier built-in to the blade grip to set a replacement blade; the acres of space on the Xmsn platform; the ease of engine removal and installation; the clever Tq indication system - I could go on.............!
I believe the performance was pretty damned impressive also (even if the blades do go the wrong way round)
But it was the total lack of technical support from Westland that killed its success. Getting spares was always an interesting exercise; as was a civil release for them - very occasional as I recall. One particular event sums up the total mis-appreciation of what the commercial market needed and reasonably could expect of the OEM. Westland published an SB for the addition of a grease nipple for lubrication of the swashplate. No special deal this - carefully drill a hole, tap it, screw in the nipple, job done.
It was necessary to take the assembly to the Weston-Super-Mare plant for this work to be completed; no-one's listening to my LAE's comments and frankly Product Support didn't even seem to know what an LAE was. So off I go with the swashplate in the back of the van. Arrive at Weston and get a bollocking for not presenting the component in its Westland-approved transit box.
I asked what time in the afternoon I could collect the modified unit. "No chance" I was told. "When then?" I asked. (Wait for it) "It'll take about 9 months......" and he was serious
Apparently the 'system' provided for EVERYTHING received to go down the full O/H route, irrespective of what work was needed - hence the timescale. I called my boss; many strenuous conversations ensued i believe. Finally, the following day I was permitted to enter the hallowed portals to inspect and certify (on my licence number) since there was only 1 x LAE at Westland, based in Yeovil, and he was on leave for two weeks. I was also advised that this was a VERY special concession which was unlikely ever to be given again, and I should be contrite and ever so grateful.
I never did find out how much the modification cost, but, cynically, I doubt an invoice was ever raised since there was in all probability, absolutely no mechanism to raise one. Anyway, my boss was ready to raise his own on Westland at 10 x the value of their's for certification......
And that, Cylic, is but one insignificant example as to how Westland missed the boat. Well it is from my perspective anyway. - VFR
Hit the nail on the head there! As a typical experience I can relate as follows.
A long time ago (when I had hair - a VERY long time ago!) I was one of the first LAE's in UK to gain a type rating on the Gazelle (SA341). I thought it was the killer of a machine from a maintenance standpoint - and streets ahead of its contemporaries at the time - FH1100, J/R, H500. Clever bits of (English) design, like the vernier built-in to the blade grip to set a replacement blade; the acres of space on the Xmsn platform; the ease of engine removal and installation; the clever Tq indication system - I could go on.............!
I believe the performance was pretty damned impressive also (even if the blades do go the wrong way round)
But it was the total lack of technical support from Westland that killed its success. Getting spares was always an interesting exercise; as was a civil release for them - very occasional as I recall. One particular event sums up the total mis-appreciation of what the commercial market needed and reasonably could expect of the OEM. Westland published an SB for the addition of a grease nipple for lubrication of the swashplate. No special deal this - carefully drill a hole, tap it, screw in the nipple, job done.
It was necessary to take the assembly to the Weston-Super-Mare plant for this work to be completed; no-one's listening to my LAE's comments and frankly Product Support didn't even seem to know what an LAE was. So off I go with the swashplate in the back of the van. Arrive at Weston and get a bollocking for not presenting the component in its Westland-approved transit box.
I asked what time in the afternoon I could collect the modified unit. "No chance" I was told. "When then?" I asked. (Wait for it) "It'll take about 9 months......" and he was serious
Apparently the 'system' provided for EVERYTHING received to go down the full O/H route, irrespective of what work was needed - hence the timescale. I called my boss; many strenuous conversations ensued i believe. Finally, the following day I was permitted to enter the hallowed portals to inspect and certify (on my licence number) since there was only 1 x LAE at Westland, based in Yeovil, and he was on leave for two weeks. I was also advised that this was a VERY special concession which was unlikely ever to be given again, and I should be contrite and ever so grateful.
I never did find out how much the modification cost, but, cynically, I doubt an invoice was ever raised since there was in all probability, absolutely no mechanism to raise one. Anyway, my boss was ready to raise his own on Westland at 10 x the value of their's for certification......
And that, Cylic, is but one insignificant example as to how Westland missed the boat. Well it is from my perspective anyway. - VFR
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Errrr...no they don't !
Actually the museum sold off three of theirs a month or more ago to a company for conversion to ground trainers,last seen in the Tewkesbury area.Looks like that company is buying more from the part Indian stock brought back by an entrepreneur in Surrey quite a few years ago.They have been stored at Redhill,Biggin and near Sevenoaks ever since.
All are stripped of useful parts.
Actually the museum sold off three of theirs a month or more ago to a company for conversion to ground trainers,last seen in the Tewkesbury area.Looks like that company is buying more from the part Indian stock brought back by an entrepreneur in Surrey quite a few years ago.They have been stored at Redhill,Biggin and near Sevenoaks ever since.
All are stripped of useful parts.
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The curse of the WG30 strikes again...
[Alleged] middleman at the center of AW101 scandal had previously bought-back WG30s from Pawan Hans as goodwill gesture
I/C
[Alleged] middleman at the center of AW101 scandal had previously bought-back WG30s from Pawan Hans as goodwill gesture
I/C
Ah well, what a day, when PWC did search my books!
Did I receive such accusing looks from old and young.
Instead of reward for my Indian charms,
A WG30 about my neck was hung!
Did I receive such accusing looks from old and young.
Instead of reward for my Indian charms,
A WG30 about my neck was hung!
Very interesting update as a mystery man in a black Rangerover tried to buy some of the WG30s in the UK around this time. After he failed an ex Westland employee came along on behalf of a Malaysian company to buy them as training machines , including the Pawan Hans aircraft stored in the Redhill/ Biggin Hill area .....they all went in the direction of Tewkesbury in late 2011 and no one has seen them since !
As far as I know the remaining Pawan machines left in India are still sitting at Mumbai after the original deal to sell them all to a man n Surrey fell apart .
Thre may be an innocent explanation of course.
As far as I know the remaining Pawan machines left in India are still sitting at Mumbai after the original deal to sell them all to a man n Surrey fell apart .
Thre may be an innocent explanation of course.
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WG30s
Can I throw in an aside on the WG30s ... and to give a break from the really heavy posts ... I just wonder how many here know the history of the G-KATE registration. In 1981, the Helicopter Hire business at Southend was run by John and Gillian Crewdson who operated the type registered as G-KATE after their new baby daughter. Many years later, I gave the lovely Kate a few initial flying lessons. Kate Crewdson obtained her private licence and went on to qualify as a medical practitioner.
A different aside too ... in 1981, I was working for the Southern Air firm at Shoreham. I picked up the phone one day to be told I was speaking to a headhunter ... a HH who had an open cheque book to recruit a few 'suitable' salesmen and as a one-time successful helicopter sales guy, I was suitable! If interested I was to report to a posh London Hotel. I did and was told to attend the company's Somerset factory for a 'two-day' interview. I checked in locally at the Three Choughs hotel and wearing my best suit I was soon paraded before the interview panel.
Having earlier checked the current WG30 was using the Gem 40 I quickly worked out the relevent range and endurance which on an IFR basis was less than an hour. I raised the issue with the panel but was firmly told the newer Gem 60 would solve any prolems.
I then asked if my job would be to demonstrate the type ... "NO we have our own specialist pilots who will be doing that". OK so I'm the Operational Advice man ... "NO we have a specialist engineering team who will be doing that". I rub my hands. Ah, I see, so I'll be the wheeler-dealer who actually does the deals! ... "NO we have qualified accountants who will be doing that". So what would I do, I ventured. "You attend the exhibitions and entertain potential customers of course". I guess that meant handing out the booze at Farnborough I decided ... but I didn't get offered the job anyway! Did I say the wrong things? Take care all. Dennis K.
A different aside too ... in 1981, I was working for the Southern Air firm at Shoreham. I picked up the phone one day to be told I was speaking to a headhunter ... a HH who had an open cheque book to recruit a few 'suitable' salesmen and as a one-time successful helicopter sales guy, I was suitable! If interested I was to report to a posh London Hotel. I did and was told to attend the company's Somerset factory for a 'two-day' interview. I checked in locally at the Three Choughs hotel and wearing my best suit I was soon paraded before the interview panel.
Having earlier checked the current WG30 was using the Gem 40 I quickly worked out the relevent range and endurance which on an IFR basis was less than an hour. I raised the issue with the panel but was firmly told the newer Gem 60 would solve any prolems.
I then asked if my job would be to demonstrate the type ... "NO we have our own specialist pilots who will be doing that". OK so I'm the Operational Advice man ... "NO we have a specialist engineering team who will be doing that". I rub my hands. Ah, I see, so I'll be the wheeler-dealer who actually does the deals! ... "NO we have qualified accountants who will be doing that". So what would I do, I ventured. "You attend the exhibitions and entertain potential customers of course". I guess that meant handing out the booze at Farnborough I decided ... but I didn't get offered the job anyway! Did I say the wrong things? Take care all. Dennis K.
Dennis
As I am sure you know, G-KATE spent many years on lease to BAH in Beccles flying the SNS for Phillips Petroleum among others. "Tango Echo" was a frequent visitor to North Denes in the mid to late 80s.
As I am sure you know, G-KATE spent many years on lease to BAH in Beccles flying the SNS for Phillips Petroleum among others. "Tango Echo" was a frequent visitor to North Denes in the mid to late 80s.
Helicopter Hire's WG30 G-KATE (so named after John Crewdson's daughter) as seen at Plymouth Airport on 2nd June 1984. John Crewdson's name appearing beneath the forward door (Photo: Chris England)
British Airways Helicopters WG30-100 as seen at Humberside Airport on 2nd August 1985 (Photo: Derek Heley)
Last edited by Savoia; 23rd Nov 2013 at 06:46.
November 2013 update on W30..............
Well actually no. Two years since those airframes went to Tewkesbury still no one has seen them since. Not on a ship...not on a fire dump,not in a scrap yard, nothing!
Well actually no. Two years since those airframes went to Tewkesbury still no one has seen them since. Not on a ship...not on a fire dump,not in a scrap yard, nothing!
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UK pushed India to buy Westland choppers in '85
I/C
The 1985 UK cabinet documents that were declassified last week show how keen the Margaret Thatcher government was to sell Westland W30 helicopters to India and save the aerospace company from certain ruin. It was apparently a case of UK government indirectly funding a private company. The money that India was eventually pressurized into spending on the helicopters was part of the unspent aid fund given by the UK to its former colony.
Discussions in the UK cabinet meetings on April 18 and 25, 1985, show that the Thatcher government was not above diplomatic arm-wrestling on the issue. Right from Thatcher to her ministers, several UK authorities were in touch with their counterparts in India, constantly pushing and even threatening to make the deal happen.
The most interesting document is the minutes of the cabinet meeting on April 25, 1985. It reads: "When the Minister for Overseas Development Mr Raison, had met Mr Gandhi on 24 April...he had also drawn Mr Gandhi's attention to the implications for the United Kingdom's aid programme to India of failure to finalise the contract for the purchase of the Westland helicopters."
The documents show that the United Kingdom's aid budget for India had been "underspent in successive years." The UK cabinet noted that the "unsatisfactory situation would have to be brought to a head, while bearing in mind that the value of United Kingdom exports to India amounted to £800 million annually and that the collapse of the helicopter contract would have grave consequences for Westlands".
Finally, Westland sold 21 helicopters to India in 1987 for £60 million, used mainly to transport personnel and supplies to offshore ONGC rigs. In 2000, The Guardian reported that India had sold the fleet back to Britain for just £900,000 a few years later as the choppers had been grounded for being technically faulty.
Discussions in the UK cabinet meetings on April 18 and 25, 1985, show that the Thatcher government was not above diplomatic arm-wrestling on the issue. Right from Thatcher to her ministers, several UK authorities were in touch with their counterparts in India, constantly pushing and even threatening to make the deal happen.
The most interesting document is the minutes of the cabinet meeting on April 25, 1985. It reads: "When the Minister for Overseas Development Mr Raison, had met Mr Gandhi on 24 April...he had also drawn Mr Gandhi's attention to the implications for the United Kingdom's aid programme to India of failure to finalise the contract for the purchase of the Westland helicopters."
The documents show that the United Kingdom's aid budget for India had been "underspent in successive years." The UK cabinet noted that the "unsatisfactory situation would have to be brought to a head, while bearing in mind that the value of United Kingdom exports to India amounted to £800 million annually and that the collapse of the helicopter contract would have grave consequences for Westlands".
Finally, Westland sold 21 helicopters to India in 1987 for £60 million, used mainly to transport personnel and supplies to offshore ONGC rigs. In 2000, The Guardian reported that India had sold the fleet back to Britain for just £900,000 a few years later as the choppers had been grounded for being technically faulty.
