Westland 30: threads merged
Avoid imitations
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S'funny how things come around in 7 year cycles...I see we discussed this in August of the year 2000! 
CH3CH2OH
Seeing this again prompted me to scan in some old pics from way back when... 
G-OGAS on Shuttle from DB100 Crane Barge to New Gas Compression Platform
Some time later, roadside assistance needed
Nope can't fix this at the roadside, where would you like it taken to... YEOVIL? That's a long way...
Never mind there'll be another one along in a minute....
G-BKGD
G-OGAS on Shuttle from DB100 Crane Barge to New Gas Compression Platform
Some time later, roadside assistance needed
Nope can't fix this at the roadside, where would you like it taken to... YEOVIL? That's a long way...
Never mind there'll be another one along in a minute....
G-BKGD
Last edited by 5711N0205W; 4th May 2008 at 16:58.
CH3CH2OH
Thought I'd give this a quick bump as it has dropped out of sight to give anyone who remembers the WG30 to indulge in a spot of nostalgia (or hysteria...) with the pics
In addition to having appeared in episodes of 'Silent Witness' and 'Peak Practise', there are a couple of flying appearances in a drama from 1985 called 'Contact', about a Parachute Regt tour in NI.
Segments of the 30 minute programme are on Youtube. Be warned though, it's only very brief, and the rest of the show makes grim viewing.
Contact, segment 1
Edited to add link.
Segments of the 30 minute programme are on Youtube. Be warned though, it's only very brief, and the rest of the show makes grim viewing.
Contact, segment 1
Edited to add link.
Last edited by diginagain; 5th May 2008 at 09:13.
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W30
Some years ago I sat next to a very senior (he knew Sikorsky as 'Igor', I jest not) Westland exec at lunch. I had just done a quick W30 conversion and asked him what he thought of the aircraft. He paused and said quietly, " a mistake" and moved on to more cheerful subjects.
There's an extra http: in your link diginagain. This one works:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=FIT3TJ7QyhQ
____________________________________________________________ _______
Link fixed
Splot
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=FIT3TJ7QyhQ
____________________________________________________________ _______
Link fixed
Splot
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Westland 30 Series 100-60
Westland 30 Series 100-60
I just discovered this heli existed the other day , otherwise known as the Super Lynx
It looks like it should have been a good large heli
Why did it die a quick death ?
Was there something fundamentally wrong with it ?
Was it a dog or the victim of political circumstance ?
I just discovered this heli existed the other day , otherwise known as the Super Lynx
It looks like it should have been a good large heli
Why did it die a quick death ?
Was there something fundamentally wrong with it ?
Was it a dog or the victim of political circumstance ?
Long story ,some explained in previous threads.
Bottom line..initially done on the cheap around Lynx dynamics and Gem engines with poor range and economics as a result...later developed with the T700 engines and five blade composite rotor but Westland broke and no government funding so died.Prototypes at Helicopter Museum plus a couple of producrtion aircraft if you ever visit UK.
Bottom line..initially done on the cheap around Lynx dynamics and Gem engines with poor range and economics as a result...later developed with the T700 engines and five blade composite rotor but Westland broke and no government funding so died.Prototypes at Helicopter Museum plus a couple of producrtion aircraft if you ever visit UK.
Pathetic range/performance - not really sure which market they were after - unless they received a huge wedge from the government to produced something to keep folk in't work.
Slab-sided box lend well to holding cargo/troops but huge cross-section must have given little engines a hard time dragging it through the air!
Go on Tarzan - tell all!
Slab-sided box lend well to holding cargo/troops but huge cross-section must have given little engines a hard time dragging it through the air!
Go on Tarzan - tell all!
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Westland 30 problems
The main problem was that it was badly underpowered using RR gem 60 engines which had to be replaced after only a few hours usage. For every 2*C above ISA you had to throw a pax overboard. It was always under rotored and if the series 300 with with T700 engines and 5 bladed rotor had actually been continued it would have been been a 150 kt useful payload machine. Having been involved in trying to sell this aircraft worldwide I can tell you it was not easy!
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Alan Bristow's take on the WG30
I co-wrote Alan Bristow's autobiography with him, and he devotes some space to the WG30 in a chapter on his failed attempt to take over Westlands. The takeover foundered when he discovered a £41 million hole in Westlands' accounts - money which had been given by the UK government as launch aid for the WG30 but not declared in the accounts because it had never been decided whether it was a loan or a grant.
Quoting from the book:
"The WG30 was Westland’s attempt to make a civilian helicopter, but it was an utter disaster. It showed how far removed Westland was from the realities of the civil market. I was widely quoted at the time as saying that it was “the wrong helicopter, for the wrong market, at the wrong time,” and that pretty much summed it up. The WG30 was noisy, heavy, complicated and expensive. I had told Basil Blackwell it was a non-starter. The payload was limited, the speed was inferior to the competition, and in hot conditions it could hardly get off the ground. The engines were too maintenance-intensive for a civilian machine, and they could never deliver on time and on price. In 1983 Westland had backed an American company called Airspur to put four WG30s into service, and were rewarded with a lawsuit from injured passengers when a tail rotor failed and one of them crashed in Los Angeles. The FAA grounded the WG30 and Westland lost more than £5 million on the Airspur operation. They managed to persuade British Airways to put two of them on the Scilly Isles run for a while, but it was never a feasible civilian proposition. The government had offered India £65 million in aid on condition the money was used to buy 25 WG30s, but the Indians didn’t seem to want them, even for nothing. Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi had signed up for them but after she’d been assassinated her son Rajiv took over, and he was a pilot who was better able to assess their value. He wanted nothing to do with them.
Westland had 21 WG30s in production and components for another 20 lying around the factory in Yeovil, but no buyers. My first act had I taken over Westland would have been to kill the WG30, probably by the usual expedient of sending it to the RAF at Boscombe Down and having them test it and turn it down. But unknown to anyone outside Westland and the Department of Trade and Industry, Westland had gone to the government in February 1983 seeking a bailout of £41 million. This was described as ‘launch aid’ which would enable them to improve the WG30 to the point where it could find a market. Somehow they persuaded the Industry Secretary Patrick Jenkin to lend them the money."
And a little further on he writes:
"Towards the end of 1985 Westland’s results came out, and they’d lost £100 million. The Sikorsky team insisted that the £41 million ‘launch aid’ for the WG30 be written off, and Leon Brittan finally agreed to do so. Under pressure from Mrs Thatcher, and in return for £65 million in aid money, India finally took 21 of the 25 WG30s they’d signed up for. The deal was done by Don Berrington, a friend of mine at Westlands who gave me a copy of a letter in which the British government agreed to give India an extra £10 million so they could afford spare parts. It must be one of the most expensive face-saving exercises the taxpayer has ever had to fund. The Indians grounded the aircraft soon afterwards, and today, 25 years on, they’re still languishing in hangars in Bombay and Delhi, and India is still looking for a buyer. But the ‘sale’ produced a small wave of optimism that the WG30 had a future, and Mrs Thatcher went full ahead to close the Sikorsky deal. She demanded that all Cabinet ministers sign up to a version of events which in effect painted the Europeans as unreliable and their offer as an insubstantial spoiler. For Michael Heseltine, this meant publicly abrogating tomorrow everything he had said today – an impossible position to be in. On January 9th, 1986, he resigned."
Quoting from the book:
"The WG30 was Westland’s attempt to make a civilian helicopter, but it was an utter disaster. It showed how far removed Westland was from the realities of the civil market. I was widely quoted at the time as saying that it was “the wrong helicopter, for the wrong market, at the wrong time,” and that pretty much summed it up. The WG30 was noisy, heavy, complicated and expensive. I had told Basil Blackwell it was a non-starter. The payload was limited, the speed was inferior to the competition, and in hot conditions it could hardly get off the ground. The engines were too maintenance-intensive for a civilian machine, and they could never deliver on time and on price. In 1983 Westland had backed an American company called Airspur to put four WG30s into service, and were rewarded with a lawsuit from injured passengers when a tail rotor failed and one of them crashed in Los Angeles. The FAA grounded the WG30 and Westland lost more than £5 million on the Airspur operation. They managed to persuade British Airways to put two of them on the Scilly Isles run for a while, but it was never a feasible civilian proposition. The government had offered India £65 million in aid on condition the money was used to buy 25 WG30s, but the Indians didn’t seem to want them, even for nothing. Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi had signed up for them but after she’d been assassinated her son Rajiv took over, and he was a pilot who was better able to assess their value. He wanted nothing to do with them.
Westland had 21 WG30s in production and components for another 20 lying around the factory in Yeovil, but no buyers. My first act had I taken over Westland would have been to kill the WG30, probably by the usual expedient of sending it to the RAF at Boscombe Down and having them test it and turn it down. But unknown to anyone outside Westland and the Department of Trade and Industry, Westland had gone to the government in February 1983 seeking a bailout of £41 million. This was described as ‘launch aid’ which would enable them to improve the WG30 to the point where it could find a market. Somehow they persuaded the Industry Secretary Patrick Jenkin to lend them the money."
And a little further on he writes:
"Towards the end of 1985 Westland’s results came out, and they’d lost £100 million. The Sikorsky team insisted that the £41 million ‘launch aid’ for the WG30 be written off, and Leon Brittan finally agreed to do so. Under pressure from Mrs Thatcher, and in return for £65 million in aid money, India finally took 21 of the 25 WG30s they’d signed up for. The deal was done by Don Berrington, a friend of mine at Westlands who gave me a copy of a letter in which the British government agreed to give India an extra £10 million so they could afford spare parts. It must be one of the most expensive face-saving exercises the taxpayer has ever had to fund. The Indians grounded the aircraft soon afterwards, and today, 25 years on, they’re still languishing in hangars in Bombay and Delhi, and India is still looking for a buyer. But the ‘sale’ produced a small wave of optimism that the WG30 had a future, and Mrs Thatcher went full ahead to close the Sikorsky deal. She demanded that all Cabinet ministers sign up to a version of events which in effect painted the Europeans as unreliable and their offer as an insubstantial spoiler. For Michael Heseltine, this meant publicly abrogating tomorrow everything he had said today – an impossible position to be in. On January 9th, 1986, he resigned."
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To me the WG30 appears to be a Shorts Skyvan with the wing replaced with rotors.
What an ugly aircraft, thank heavens they are designed by computers these days!
The old adage "If it looks right, it probably is" comes to mind!
Tony
What an ugly aircraft, thank heavens they are designed by computers these days!
The old adage "If it looks right, it probably is" comes to mind!
Tony
When the British Grande Prix moved to Siverstone there was only one airstrip avalable on the North Side. I came round onto finals and was cleared to continue as No 4. In front of me was a a BA Westland 30 and in front of him was a Hughes 500. The 500 did not understand what bay he was to land at so he stopped at about 100 ft. whilst he found out.
"FOR CHRIST'S SAKE KEEP GOING. DON'T HANG ABOUT THERE."
I think the W30 pilot was worried about whether he could stay in the air behind him.
"FOR CHRIST'S SAKE KEEP GOING. DON'T HANG ABOUT THERE."
I think the W30 pilot was worried about whether he could stay in the air behind him.
In my retrospection of the WG30 I am prepared to be one of the few who believed this project possessed the potential to reinvigorate Westland's balance sheets by serving as a catalyst for an effective civilian revenue stream.
The craft's Achilles Heel, as we know, was its underwhelming performance in practically all areas; range, power, operating cost and doubtless too Westland's technical support. However, the potentially 22 place accommodation, even if reduced, as well as the dimensions and layout of the passenger cabin, gave it, in my view, the potential to succeed - had the aforementioned flaws been avoided/overcome.
I sometimes ask myself what are some of the measures Westland could have taken to avert the project's failure and here's my tuppence worth:
Fuselage: The WG30 employed a composite tailboom (Bravo!) but, had they tried to develop a near all-composite airframe the weight savings could have been significantly advantageous.
Powerplant: Sincerely, I don't know which of the 70's powerplants would have best suited the 30, my stab would be something like the General Electric CT7 or the Turboméca Turmo either of which would have cost less to operate than the Gem and both of which would have yielded greater power.
Running Gear: Westland's already possessed a history of cooperation with Aérospatiale and, though they wanted to undertake this venture independently, they could have collaborated with Aérospat in the design of a more tailored solution to the WG30's dynamic systems providing, in particular, a main transmission with the capacity for at least one additional generation/upgrade of the type.
Had the WG30 proved a success she would, I believe, have been an effective pre-cursor to the AW139 and had successive developments of the type applied effective enhancements with each generation you just might have seen one British marque serving the international market but .. it was not to be!
Regarding Bristow; Alan, for the most part, seems to have been a pragmatist and his comments revealing his intention to 'kill' the WG30 programme would seem to confirm this. One can only speculate as to his intentions with Westlands but my guess is that he was not interested in pioneering some newfangled product (unless the returns were guaranteed) and even less interested in restoring Britain's ailing aviation legacy. More than likely he wanted to streamline the performance of Westland's military contracts and get the firm running (with a healthy buffer) in the black.
For me the WG30 represents a commendable effort on the part of Westland to break into pastures new and, even as a youngster, I was inspired by their willingness to divert from their staple military market. For the many reasons tendered on this thread (and other factors besides) the WG30 failed and which, I feel, was a sad chapter in British rotorcraft history.
Not all is lost however! Westlands are now welded to a company with a compatible history and the AW139, in the minds of a few, flies on as an unintentional tribute to what the WG30 could have been like had things turned-out differently!
Various frames of the WG30 testbed, plus cutaway and last but by no means least, a photo autographed by Roy Moxam who flew test on the type
The craft's Achilles Heel, as we know, was its underwhelming performance in practically all areas; range, power, operating cost and doubtless too Westland's technical support. However, the potentially 22 place accommodation, even if reduced, as well as the dimensions and layout of the passenger cabin, gave it, in my view, the potential to succeed - had the aforementioned flaws been avoided/overcome.
I sometimes ask myself what are some of the measures Westland could have taken to avert the project's failure and here's my tuppence worth:
Fuselage: The WG30 employed a composite tailboom (Bravo!) but, had they tried to develop a near all-composite airframe the weight savings could have been significantly advantageous.
Powerplant: Sincerely, I don't know which of the 70's powerplants would have best suited the 30, my stab would be something like the General Electric CT7 or the Turboméca Turmo either of which would have cost less to operate than the Gem and both of which would have yielded greater power.
Running Gear: Westland's already possessed a history of cooperation with Aérospatiale and, though they wanted to undertake this venture independently, they could have collaborated with Aérospat in the design of a more tailored solution to the WG30's dynamic systems providing, in particular, a main transmission with the capacity for at least one additional generation/upgrade of the type.
Had the WG30 proved a success she would, I believe, have been an effective pre-cursor to the AW139 and had successive developments of the type applied effective enhancements with each generation you just might have seen one British marque serving the international market but .. it was not to be!
Regarding Bristow; Alan, for the most part, seems to have been a pragmatist and his comments revealing his intention to 'kill' the WG30 programme would seem to confirm this. One can only speculate as to his intentions with Westlands but my guess is that he was not interested in pioneering some newfangled product (unless the returns were guaranteed) and even less interested in restoring Britain's ailing aviation legacy. More than likely he wanted to streamline the performance of Westland's military contracts and get the firm running (with a healthy buffer) in the black.
For me the WG30 represents a commendable effort on the part of Westland to break into pastures new and, even as a youngster, I was inspired by their willingness to divert from their staple military market. For the many reasons tendered on this thread (and other factors besides) the WG30 failed and which, I feel, was a sad chapter in British rotorcraft history.
Not all is lost however! Westlands are now welded to a company with a compatible history and the AW139, in the minds of a few, flies on as an unintentional tribute to what the WG30 could have been like had things turned-out differently!
Various frames of the WG30 testbed, plus cutaway and last but by no means least, a photo autographed by Roy Moxam who flew test on the type
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Bristow and the WG30
Savoia writes:
"Regarding Bristow; Alan, for the most part, seems to have been a pragmatist and his comments revealing his intention to 'kill' the WG30 programme would seem to confirm this. One can only speculate as to his intentions with Westlands but my guess is that he was not interested in pioneering some newfangled product (unless the returns were guaranteed) and even less interested in restoring Britain's ailing aviation legacy. More than likely he wanted to streamline the performance of Westland's military contracts and get the firm running (with a healthy buffer) in the black."
No, there's no need to speculate. Bristow was entirely open about his intentions. For a generation he had been Westland's biggest civil customer and he was well aware of their shortcomings. He preferred to buy British and had attempted to purchase Sea Kings, but had been forced to opt for S61s because Westland couldn't fill his order. He believed that the future of the company rested with the EH101, which unlike the WG30 could be a genuine contender in the civil market. It was well designed and incorporated revolutionary technology, not least in its rotor head. Above all, Bristow believed Westland should be part of a European helicopter consortium which would include Aerospatiale, Bolkow, Agusta and smaller Spanish and Dutch companies, in order to compete with the Americans. In 1986 he voiced his fear that because of Westland's sclerotic procedures the EH101 would remain a military product and would take decades to bring to market, by which time it would be near-obsolete.
"Regarding Bristow; Alan, for the most part, seems to have been a pragmatist and his comments revealing his intention to 'kill' the WG30 programme would seem to confirm this. One can only speculate as to his intentions with Westlands but my guess is that he was not interested in pioneering some newfangled product (unless the returns were guaranteed) and even less interested in restoring Britain's ailing aviation legacy. More than likely he wanted to streamline the performance of Westland's military contracts and get the firm running (with a healthy buffer) in the black."
No, there's no need to speculate. Bristow was entirely open about his intentions. For a generation he had been Westland's biggest civil customer and he was well aware of their shortcomings. He preferred to buy British and had attempted to purchase Sea Kings, but had been forced to opt for S61s because Westland couldn't fill his order. He believed that the future of the company rested with the EH101, which unlike the WG30 could be a genuine contender in the civil market. It was well designed and incorporated revolutionary technology, not least in its rotor head. Above all, Bristow believed Westland should be part of a European helicopter consortium which would include Aerospatiale, Bolkow, Agusta and smaller Spanish and Dutch companies, in order to compete with the Americans. In 1986 he voiced his fear that because of Westland's sclerotic procedures the EH101 would remain a military product and would take decades to bring to market, by which time it would be near-obsolete.
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Meanwhile, on the M4....
Found this (v. interesting) thread with a little search after driving past three airframes on low loaders, travelling West on the M4 around Reading this evening (1730 hrs or so).
Any ideas on where they were heading....?
Any ideas on where they were heading....?
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Westland TT 300
I have been doing helicopters for 25 years in the USA and I have to say the Westland TT300 is my Favorite. Remember the Jet Ranger through blades, transmissions, straps, caught fire and everything else and eventually evolved into a safe machine. Every scheduled helicopter operation ended in tears in the USA, for Airline style transport i.e. Chicago, L.A. N.Y. Tours however did well. An aluminum structure, Berp blades, solid G.E. engines, new avionics and a little composites would have made this 150 knot 500 mile the King of the Sea! It would be crashworthy, economical and High performance, Reliable! My hats off to you guys with the vision. The Five Bladed Machine needs to be built! My opinion is that composite helicopters never have happy endings when they/you drag their heels , you usually end up loosing some teeth.