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Question about the Kobe Bryant Crash

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Question about the Kobe Bryant Crash

Old 4th May 2022, 23:09
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: US
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Originally Posted by JimEli View Post
Spoken like someone who has never exceeded a speed limit.
I do a pretty good imitation of a chicken clucking but I've never laid an egg. I guess I should park that routine. Your comment leaves me confused, Perhaps you have more to say that would clarify why you think I was somehow being hypocritical. I have been disoriented in scud and it scared the bejesus out of me but I survived. I had no passengers and it would have been more egregious if I had people paying for a safe flight on board. I have also J walked in a busy city, used a questionably unsound ladder and even left a few stove burners on by accident. I don't even fly anymore and am. not current but I think I can still give a good safety seminar if need be ( clucking is included).
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Old 5th May 2022, 05:32
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: UK
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Originally Posted by SASless View Post
The Pilot-In-Command is the last link in a chain that is supposed to act to prevent such tragedies....and as we know....any chain is only as strong as the weakest link.

Which link do you wish to identify as the Link that had the most effect in failing to prevent this accident?
I would hope we all agree with this statement above, as pilots we are the last line of defence in our aviation system, gross negligence aside.
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Old 15th May 2022, 07:36
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
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Originally Posted by Dick Smith View Post
Always remember the HAI safety advice;

Land and Live!

100% Dick!

Whatever the consequence of landing never out ways dying.

Get on the ground and worry about the rest later.
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Old 15th May 2022, 20:35
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2022
Location: Boca Raton
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Flying a complex type like it was a rented scooter.

So many weak links in this chain.
A total failure to protect the passengers.
One button...
One button is all he had to push..
If only he knew the button was there..
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Old 16th May 2022, 11:44
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Which one button is it you think would have saved the day?
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Old 16th May 2022, 12:32
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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If only he knew the button was there..
i don't think he had Autoland fitted........................
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Old 16th May 2022, 14:49
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
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Originally Posted by lowlevelflier View Post
So many weak links in this chain.
A total failure to protect the passengers.
One button...
One button is all he had to push..
If only he knew the button was there..
I don't think that this is a healthy attitude to take, that pushing a button is what solves your immediate flying problems.
If the mishap the pilot had more recency of experience in instrument flying, and perhaps a better internalized Inadvertent IFR procedures - in other words, had he been able to draw on the full suite of flying skills that a pilot with an instrument rating would be expected to have - then which button was or was not pushed to aid their flying efforts isn't the primary thing to address. Those buttons are there to help you fly.

Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 16th May 2022 at 15:02.
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Old 16th May 2022, 15:56
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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With the poor levels of airmanship, decision making and professionalism displayed in that accident, no button in the world was going to save him from himself.
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Old 16th May 2022, 16:02
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 View Post
I don't think that this is a healthy attitude to take, that pushing a button is what solves your immediate flying problems.
If the mishap the pilot had more recency of experience in instrument flying, and perhaps a better internalized Inadvertent IFR procedures - in other words, had he been able to draw on the full suite of flying skills that a pilot with an instrument rating would be expected to have - then which button was or was not pushed to aid their flying efforts isn't the primary thing to address. Those buttons are there to help you fly.
not necessarily the time to be looking for a button. reminds me of
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Old 17th May 2022, 08:13
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SASless View Post
Which one button is it you think would have saved the day?
The Go Around button
Wings level
Vbroc
700fpm RoC
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Old 17th May 2022, 08:17
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
i don't think he had Autoland fitted........................
Not talking about Autoland
The SPZ7600 has a G/A feature that levels the wings, initiates a 700fpm climb at Vbroc
It requires knowing you're in deep shit ... but had he engaged it,, he'd have popped out into gin clear skies in less than 30 sec
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Old 17th May 2022, 12:09
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Not talking about Autoland
My comment was tongue in cheek.

Many aircraft have the G/A feature but you need to have the AP set up correctly to allow for upper mode engagement - we have discussed his lack of awareness of how dangerous his situation was and there were many occasions when he didn't even need the AP to save him, just turning round or slowing down would have done that.
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Old 17th May 2022, 12:37
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by lowlevelflier View Post
Not talking about Autoland
The SPZ7600 has a G/A feature that levels the wings, initiates a 700fpm climb at Vbroc
It requires knowing you're in deep shit ... but had he engaged it,, he'd have popped out into gin clear skies in less than 30 sec
To be pedantic, this aircraft had the SPZ-7000, but the point is valid. However, I'd put money on it was being flown in SAS mode with the trim off, so G/A wouldn't have helped. Just relooked at the NTSB report and I'm surprised there is not more mention of what state the AFCS selector panel was in - should have been possible from bulb filament analysis.
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Old 17th May 2022, 16:05
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Also the NTSB gave scant attention to exactly what was the Company SOP's re use of the installed Autopilot, did not delve into the details of what was taught about using the Autopilot during Training, and there was zero mention of what the Accident Pilot did during his flights in the S-76 re use of the Autopilot.

By investigate fully....I mean going deeper than just a cursory examination of the practices.

Being a VFR Only Operation.....I can see some Cheese Holes appearing that would not happen had it been an IFR Operation.

As the S-76 was being used more like an upscale JetRanger I can imagine all that Gucci Kit was not being used to its maximum benefit.

212Man echoes my earlier posts when I espoused always flying with the Force Trim ON....and using ATT Mode at all times.

The weather conditions and height above ground the aircraft was flying in.....and the FAR's, and Part 135 OpSpecs for the Operator may have influenced the use or non-use of the Autopilot in a Hands Off Level.

General limitations are usually no use of an Autopilot below 500 Feet AGL unless on an approved Instrument Approach where both lateral and vertical guidance is being received.
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Old 17th May 2022, 20:14
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
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Originally Posted by lowlevelflier View Post
The Go Around button
Wings level
Vbroc
700fpm RoC
As said, you would have to be coupled to the autopilot for this to possibly work and he certainly was not or this wouldn't have happened. I hope the go-around button only works in approach mode as accidental engagement in cruise in the weather would be most unpleasant. There really would be zero reasons to hit the go-around button if coupled.
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Old 18th May 2022, 02:08
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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I hope the go-around button only works in approach mode as accidental engagement in cruise in the weather would be most unpleasant
For the GA mode to work you need to be already coupled, selection of GA cancels all other modes but after engagement any lateral mode may be used, if any pitch mode (VS, ALT, ILS, IAS) is then selected GA is cancelled. would work if the button were pressed in the cruise, but difficult to see, given the position of the buttons, how you could do this accidentally.

Nothing unpleasant if you were to hit it in the cruise, it just commands a 750 ft ROC and maintains the current heading.
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Old 18th May 2022, 05:22
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 212man View Post
To be pedantic, this aircraft had the SPZ-7000, but the point is valid. However, I'd put money on it was being flown in SAS mode with the trim off, so G/A wouldn't have helped. Just relooked at the NTSB report and I'm surprised there is not more mention of what state the AFCS selector panel was in - should have been possible from bulb filament analysis.
It's possible he was in SAS mode .. although never really should be out of ATT mode in this type of operation..
He had the entire SPZ 7000 suite to help him out.. but, as you mentioned,, it was being flown like a jet-box
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Old 18th May 2022, 11:19
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by megan View Post
For the GA mode to work you need to be already coupled, selection of GA cancels all other modes but after engagement any lateral mode may be used, if any pitch mode (VS, ALT, ILS, IAS) is then selected GA is cancelled. would work if the button were pressed in the cruise, but difficult to see, given the position of the buttons, how you could do this accidentally.

Nothing unpleasant if you were to hit it in the cruise, it just commands a 750 ft ROC and maintains the current heading.
Okay, I was wrong about the GA mode, at least in the 109 anyway. I engaged it in cruise (not coupled to the autopilot) and it started a climb. Nothing abrupt or steep, probably because I was already at a high power setting. I still don't see how it would have helped the accident pilot though as he probably was just hand flying after getting spatial disoriented. I have the feeling he rarely if ever used the autopilot and was not terribly familiar with it's operation.
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Old 18th May 2022, 11:46
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by helonorth View Post
As said, you would have to be coupled to the autopilot for this to possibly work and he certainly was not or this wouldn't have happened. I hope the go-around button only works in approach mode as accidental engagement in cruise in the weather would be most unpleasant. There really would be zero reasons to hit the go-around button if coupled.
It's not unpleasant at all...and if memory serves me, so long as both AP's are on and you're in ATT mode (default setting) and G/A is engaged, it will activate.
I can't imagine any reason he'd be in SAS only mode...but it's possible.
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Old 18th May 2022, 13:24
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 212man View Post
To be pedantic, this aircraft had the SPZ-7000, but the point is valid. However, I'd put money on it was being flown in SAS mode with the trim off, so G/A wouldn't have helped. Just relooked at the NTSB report and I'm surprised there is not more mention of what state the AFCS selector panel was in - should have been possible from bulb filament analysis.
I don't think it was in the final report, but from the materials report: "No bulbs were found in the AP1 ON, AP2 ON, COLL RAD, FD2 and SAS/ATT annunciators." https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket/Documen...0Final-Rel.pdf

Last edited by airplanecrazy; 18th May 2022 at 13:37.
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