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EMS 429 down Elba, NY

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EMS 429 down Elba, NY

Old 26th Apr 2022, 21:55
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EMS 429 down Elba, NY

Might be N507TJ, Bell 429, training flight. Both occupants deceased.

https://apnews.com/article/media-new...b00eca5f277b32
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Old 26th Apr 2022, 23:25
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I read elsewhere there was a Bell IP onboard - anyone know if this was correct
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Old 27th Apr 2022, 01:31
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Crew identified

per the daily news online

The pilot was James E. Sauer, 60, of Churchville, state police said. He was a retired New York State police pilot who began working with Mercy Flight in October 2020.
Stewart M. Dietrick, 60 of Prosper, Texas was also aboard. He was described as a Bell Helicopter flight instructor.
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Old 27th Apr 2022, 09:50
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Kathryn's Report: Bell 429, N507TJ: Fatal accident occurred April 26, 2022 in Elba, Genesee County, New York

Adsbexchange lost the signal at about 1800.

https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao...amp=1650992397
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Old 27th Apr 2022, 22:06
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Some more info.

https://www.ems1.com/helicopter-cras...fE7UwhVcFFb59/
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Old 28th Apr 2022, 08:37
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just curious: whats the U.S. max. age limit for single pilot in command and for multi crew pic and copilot, applicable to commerical helicopter flights?
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Old 28th Apr 2022, 12:42
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Another News article with a photo of the aircraft wreckage.

In all of the photos I. have seen....all with limited field of view....no signs of the Main Rotors is visible (at least to my old eyes).

One mention said the Tail Rotor was laying close by but separated from the main wreckage. Later it was described as being 300 feet away from the main wreckage which was badly damaged but mostly intact.

A different news report had this to say......

The helicopter was flying for about 105 minutes when witnesses observed the helicopter at an altitude of 2,000 feet, heard a loud boom and saw it fall. The wreckage is spread out an area of about 2,000 feet, McCarter said.
http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2022/0...-occurred.html


One Witness recounted having heard some unusual noises ("Clicking followed by a loud BOOM").

Can anyone add to the description of the crash scene beyond that?


https://nypost.com/2022/04/27/james-...icopter-crash/

Last edited by SASless; 28th Apr 2022 at 12:54.
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Old 28th Apr 2022, 13:19
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Originally Posted by Reely340 View Post
just curious: whats the U.S. max. age limit for single pilot in command and for multi crew pic and copilot, applicable to commerical helicopter flights?
The is no upper age limit in Part 135 operations. However, in some ops customers will assign a maximum total age number in the cockpit of larger multi-crew helicopters. I believe Shell had a max 120 years cockpit age limit at one time for offshore flights.
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Old 28th Apr 2022, 13:30
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Best video of crash scene so far.

It appears the Helicopter experienced a catastrophic failure of some kind while in flight and shed parts on the way down.

Cause of the failure or suspected cause has not been determined.

Though not seen in the video...the Main Rotors seem to be further away than the Tail Rotor and Vertical Stabilizers.

The NTSB Official described the wreckage trail being about 2000 feet long.

https://www.whec.com/rochester-new-y...crash/6456860/

Last edited by SASless; 28th Apr 2022 at 13:46.
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Old 28th Apr 2022, 14:22
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I think it's about time that pilots and instructors stop messing around with VRS. There are certain corners of the flight envelope that we shouldn't be exploring. As our fixed-wing brethren have found out, some things are better left practiced in the sim.
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Old 28th Apr 2022, 15:32
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Originally Posted by FH1100 Pilot View Post
I think it's about time that pilots and instructors stop messing around with VRS. There are certain corners of the flight envelope that we shouldn't be exploring. As our fixed-wing brethren have found out, some things are better left practiced in the sim.
What leads you to believe that VRS is a factor in this tragic accident?
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Old 28th Apr 2022, 15:45
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thx wrench1 for the fast reply
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Old 28th Apr 2022, 16:40
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Word on the street is VRS training with a Bell IP.

YMMV
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Old 28th Apr 2022, 18:00
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We "know" this how?
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Old 28th Apr 2022, 18:05
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Originally Posted by albatross View Post
What leads you to believe that VRS is a factor in this tragic accident?
ADS-B data from the last flight:

N507TJ

Very sad
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Old 28th Apr 2022, 18:29
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Make your case....lay it out for us.
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Old 28th Apr 2022, 20:28
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Originally Posted by SASless View Post
We "know" this how?
"We" don't know anything factual, as I said "word on the street". Take that for what you may.
I will say that the Virginia State Police had a similar occurrence in a B407 about 5 years ago attributed to entering VRS. Main rotor severed the tailboom.

Last edited by LRP; 28th Apr 2022 at 20:30. Reason: unnecessary comment.
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Old 28th Apr 2022, 21:57
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What is the commonality between the two crashes besides "Bell"?

Unless you can provide some reasonable cause for the "Word" then it is pure supposition by someone who originated the rumor.....and rises to the level of gossip.

In time perhaps there might be some basis for such speculation such as prior experiences with the Instructor, or a module of the training syllabus that includes VRS, or something like that.

Was there VRS training being done....per a formal curriculum?

Any other 429 Operators utilizing Bell Helicopter Factory Instructor Pilots able to confirm they have had such training by Bell Instructors?
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Old 29th Apr 2022, 06:32
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Here is a quick animation I created of the last 90 seconds of ADS-B Exchange data using Google Earth. This is my first attempt using Google Earth in this manner and it might not exactly track real time ​​​​.
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Old 29th Apr 2022, 07:25
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Without filtering the ADSB data, it does appear the helo was in a low speed, moderate sink rate descent that was not autorotation sink rates, so it was a partial powered descent, roughly 20Kts GS, 800-1000FPM, in a turn. Seems an odd altitude to demonstrate a VRS recovery, and doing a demo or a practice in a left turn seems odd as well. Lousy ending.
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