Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Rotorheads
Reload this Page >

Helicopter missing - Mt Disappointment VIC (AU)

Rotorheads A haven for helicopter professionals to discuss the things that affect them

Helicopter missing - Mt Disappointment VIC (AU)

Old 2nd Apr 2022, 14:09
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: ex Horn Island
Posts: 95
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Angry

Originally Posted by catseye View Post
unfortunately have to agree. wish it was something else. too many of these.
Mountain wave?
I spy is offline  
Old 3rd Apr 2022, 10:58
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 3,505
Received 44 Likes on 18 Posts
Squawk7700 is online now  
Old 3rd Apr 2022, 12:20
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 353
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
That Flightpath data exert indicates XWD got down as low as 2,592' then down to 2,411' whilst the other aircraft WVV stayed around the 3,900' mark.
May be there was a aircraft problem.
Does anyone know what height the mount is?
Kulwin Park is offline  
Old 3rd Apr 2022, 13:59
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: The Empire
Age: 49
Posts: 225
Received 6 Likes on 3 Posts
Originally Posted by Kulwin Park View Post
That Flightpath data exert indicates XWD got down as low as 2,592' then down to 2,411' whilst the other aircraft WVV stayed around the 3,900' mark.
May be there was a aircraft problem.
Does anyone know what height the mount is?
Captain Google says 2,600í
Doors Off is offline  
Old 3rd Apr 2022, 16:07
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 9,666
Received 113 Likes on 54 Posts
Has all the hallmarks of scud running and getting it wrong - the other aircraft is 1000' higher and gets through...........nothing much more to say.
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 3rd Apr 2022, 22:20
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Australia.
Posts: 288
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 2 Posts
Departing the city for Ulupna (as reported), if cloud base was an issue then it is a mystery to me why they chose to go via the hills rather than the Kilmore Gap, only a few miles to the west and pretty much on track. RIP.
the coyote is offline  
Old 3rd Apr 2022, 22:40
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Redding CA, or on a fire somewhere
Posts: 1,922
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes on 3 Posts
Originally Posted by megan View Post
.When the Huey first came out accident investigators found the pilot/s at times still strapped in their seats, but located some distance in front of the airframe, having been ejected trough the windscreen in what should have been a survivable accident. Belts at the time were attached at the seat and the seat was letting go from the runners, probably aided by airframe distortion, lap belts were then secured to the airframe, shoulder harness remained attached to the rear and bottom of the seat (inertia reel). Problem solved.
Even to this day we would not wear our shoulder harnesses in the 212/205/Huey as we are mostly doing external load and with the shoulder straps on you cannot lean all the way out in the bubble window. About 5 years ago we bought the "tilt" seat and now we are able to wear them. Some of the "old School" pilots still refuse however.
Gordy is offline  
Old 4th Apr 2022, 00:53
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland
Posts: 942
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Were either pilot instrument rated & were the helicopters IF equipped? Was the second pilot flying on top or in IMC & flew himself out safely?
Nigel Osborn is offline  
Old 4th Apr 2022, 01:36
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 3,505
Received 44 Likes on 18 Posts
The descent rate in the final 20 seconds of flight appears to be in excess of 4,000fpm if the surveillance data is accurate.
Squawk7700 is online now  
Old 4th Apr 2022, 03:02
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland
Posts: 942
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
4000 fpm is basically impossible in free fall, an object would need to be powered to fall that fast. A dropped brick falls at only about 120 mph. I hope my maths hasn't gone too astray!
Nigel Osborn is offline  
Old 4th Apr 2022, 03:51
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: N/A
Posts: 5,048
Likes: 0
Received 75 Likes on 35 Posts
4000 fpm is basically impossible in free fall
It's only 45 MPH Nigel, 5280 fpm is 60 MPH. A brick would be far higher than 120 MPH, which is what a skydiver in belly to earth falls at, on average, they use weights and tight/loose clothing to adjust free fall speeds relative to one another, Grand Slam and Tall Boy bombs of WWII impacted at some 750 MPH, only power required was an aircraft to drop them from.
megan is online now  
Old 4th Apr 2022, 06:24
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 3,505
Received 44 Likes on 18 Posts
Originally Posted by Nigel Osborn View Post
4000 fpm is basically impossible in free fall, an object would need to be powered to fall that fast. A dropped brick falls at only about 120 mph. I hope my maths hasn't gone too astray!
Some passenger jets climb at in excess of 3,000fpm.
Squawk7700 is online now  
Old 4th Apr 2022, 08:22
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Germany
Posts: 916
Received 5 Likes on 3 Posts
Originally Posted by Nigel Osborn View Post
4000 fpm is basically impossible in free fall, an object would need to be powered to fall that fast. A dropped brick falls at only about 120 mph. I hope my maths hasn't gone too astray!
4.000 fpm decent is easy possible - had it on the VSI more than once - but deliberate ;-)
Flying Bull is offline  
Old 4th Apr 2022, 08:55
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Age: 74
Posts: 4,364
Received 8 Likes on 7 Posts
Originally Posted by Squawk7700 View Post
Some passenger jets climb at in excess of 3,000fpm.
Without going too far OT, the BK117 managed 4,000fpm RoC back in the last century, passenger jets way more than that. RoD for most helicopters would be >2,000fpm in an auto although some come down like the proverbial brick: the Wasp/Scout was 3,500-4,000fpm in a 'normal' auto. 360* autos in a Squirrel can reach the 3,000fpm RoD, too, within the error of FR24 readouts.

Back On topic, the Kilmore Gap sort of made it easier to get through the low cloud around Disappointment and the Macedon Ranges, is it still local knowledge or has the Magenta Line overruled such options? I haven't seen any mention of a mechanical failure, but it can't be discounted until the initial report comes out.
John Eacott is offline  
Old 4th Apr 2022, 10:01
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 9,666
Received 113 Likes on 54 Posts
Unless the debris field is well spread , which might indicate an in-flight break up of some sort, there probably won't be enough left to reach much of a conclusion about mechanical failure.
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 5th Apr 2022, 04:16
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: N/A
Posts: 5,048
Likes: 0
Received 75 Likes on 35 Posts
the Wasp/Scout was 3,500-4,000fpm in a 'normal' auto
Was always too scared to look John, besides, was too busy scanning the potential crash site.
megan is online now  
Old 5th Apr 2022, 13:06
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Exeter
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by megan View Post
Was always too scared to look John, besides, was too busy scanning the potential crash site.
Didn't the ROC max out at 2000 fpm?
HissingSyd is offline  
Old 5th Apr 2022, 22:32
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Age: 74
Posts: 4,364
Received 8 Likes on 7 Posts
Originally Posted by HissingSyd View Post
Didn't the ROC max out at 2000 fpm?
C'mon, don't spoil the dit
John Eacott is offline  
Old 6th Apr 2022, 01:01
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Great South East, tired and retired
Posts: 4,084
Likes: 0
Received 27 Likes on 17 Posts
One story is that the ROC is limited to 2000fpm because if the engine quit, the aircraft would keep going up for a while and by the time the ROD was sufficient to turn the blades in autorotation, the RRPM was too low for it to work.

However, that might be a load of horsefeathers.
Ascend Charlie is offline  
Old 6th Apr 2022, 04:22
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Australia
Age: 46
Posts: 726
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Ascend Charlie View Post
One story is that the ROC is limited to 2000fpm because if the engine quit, the aircraft would keep going up for a while and by the time the ROD was sufficient to turn the blades in autorotation, the RRPM was too low for it to work.

However, that might be a load of horsefeathers.
If I remember rightly, the 407 has a 2000 FPM ROC limit for that reason.
belly tank is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.