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Stick skills v airmanship

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Stick skills v airmanship

Old 2nd Feb 2021, 13:11
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
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The pilot clearly didn't attend this webinar!!!Risk Management for Personal and Private Operations

• Reducing negative outcomes is equally important for you.
o Understand the hazards and their risks
o Helping to make better decisions

• It all starts with a personal commitment to prioritizing safety
o You must be honest with yourself
o Hold yourself accountable

• Next, implement some process to keep safety at the forefront of each flight

o Here, we will focus on two simple and important strategies
  • Mitigating Risk
  • Personal Minimums


https://ushst.org/Repository/Personal_Mins_PAVE.pdf

https://ushst.org/private-flying/

http://ihsf.aero/Fact_Sheets/Fatalities.pdf

Last edited by nomorehelosforme; 2nd Feb 2021 at 13:36.
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Old 2nd Feb 2021, 13:19
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bell_ringer View Post
Another sterling advertisement for Robinson owners.
You don't really want me to post citations of sterling examples of airmanship among pretty much every other helicopter made, do you?
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Old 2nd Feb 2021, 13:20
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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When not if.
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Old 2nd Feb 2021, 13:43
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by aa777888 View Post
You don't really want me to post citations of sterling examples of airmanship among pretty much every other helicopter made, do you?
Now that is a game of top trumps I would play.
Your deck just wouldnít have the same depth and quality as mine. The Russian and South American editions are quite comprehensive on their own.

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Old 2nd Feb 2021, 14:50
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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meh,......
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Old 2nd Feb 2021, 15:12
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Hate to say it, but I'm with AA777 here. Nothing the R-44 guy did looked *that* dangerous. Aside from the drunken goobers hanging around the SUV's, there weren't any other people in the area. Oh, and since somebody brought up Dennis K., that pivot-around-the-skid-toe thing he used to do surely made me cringe too. Yikes! Oh, and didn't DK actually crash someone else's helicopter during one of his, um, demonstrations? Should we mention that or do we just ignore it?
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Old 2nd Feb 2021, 15:57
  #27 (permalink)  
MLH
 
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The drunken goobers were more entertaining than the pilots flying skills.
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Old 2nd Feb 2021, 16:07
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bell_ringer View Post
Now that is a game of top trumps I would play.
Your deck just wouldnít have the same depth and quality as mine. The Russian and South American editions are quite comprehensive on their own.
Tell you what: stop blaming United States Robinson owners for your anti-Robinson attitude or, better yet, stop blaming the machine, and I'll be right there with you. And don't forget NZ on your list of serial Robinson crashers. It's not Robinson's fault if people do stupid sh*t, other than the helicopter is economical enough to allow those with minimal oversight to purchase one. Little different than all the rich idiots crashing supercars for our Youtube viewing pleasure.
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Old 2nd Feb 2021, 16:27
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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I once saw a guy who flew a Schweizer like this. He crashed soon after and finally.
People flying like this shouldn't be permitted to fly at all from my point of view.
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Old 2nd Feb 2021, 16:32
  #30 (permalink)  
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
 
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Intellectual capacity follows a standard distribution, somebody has to prop up the left hand side of the graph, so good for this guy.
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Old 2nd Feb 2021, 16:39
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by aa777888 View Post
Tell you what: stop blaming United States Robinson owners for your anti-Robinson attitude or, better yet, stop blaming the machine, and I'll be right there with you. And don't forget NZ on your list of serial Robinson crashers. It's not Robinson's fault if people do stupid sh*t, other than the helicopter is economical enough to allow those with minimal oversight to purchase one. Little different than all the rich idiots crashing supercars for our Youtube viewing pleasure.
Itís not a regional thing, some regions do have really poor oversight which stacks the deck.
The aircraft is cheap.
Like a low cost carrier has a more salt-of-the-earth clientele, Robinsonís will attract a less desirable sort of pilot.
You will see an Astar or 407 from time to time, but it will never occupy the same amount of youtube capacity.
Idiots do stupid things in all sorts of vehicles.
Just because Iíve been fortunate enough to drive a Lambo, doesnít mean Iím going to make excuses for those that do.
No one with a concept of safety, airmanship or professionalism will consider these videos, and the given context, anything other than a future statistic in motion.
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Old 2nd Feb 2021, 16:56
  #32 (permalink)  
MLH
 
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"I am seriously considering self-insuring the hull." I never had hull on either of my 44's. Over the 15 years of cumulative ownership I could have purchased a third 44 with the savings. A positive takeaway was the self questioning, do I really want to do that? It kept me at the low end for risk adversity.
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Old 3rd Feb 2021, 06:13
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Wonder how many times he exceeded his MAP limit during that? Some of those manoeuvres need a lot of power. Wouldn't want to fly the aircraft after he has finished with it!
To answer your question in one word: None.

The R44 Raven II has plenty of power-to-weight, and with 1-up these routines are well within MAP and other limits of the aircraft.
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Old 3rd Feb 2021, 07:08
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Pure ego: many dead pilots with theirs at this level
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Old 3rd Feb 2021, 11:03
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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and with 1-up these routines are well within MAP and other limits of the aircraft.
Not sure how you can state that without being in the aircraft - you are assuming he is actually flying the manoeuvres skillfully. Sliding in and out of ETL with complex yaw and translation uses up more power than simple, basic manoeuvres.
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Old 3rd Feb 2021, 12:37
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by rich34glider View Post
Pure ego: many dead pilots with theirs at this level
I think that's the key point here. Whether or not this was dangerous or exceeded aircraft limits, he clearly has a huge ego and that is likely to catch him out in the future. IIMC springs to mind.....

Last edited by 212man; 3rd Feb 2021 at 13:09.
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Old 3rd Feb 2021, 12:48
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Why would a huge ego need to show off like that?
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Old 3rd Feb 2021, 14:16
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Seen 61s, Tigers and the odd 76 doing those kind of things 30-odd years ago. I thought it was bloody awesome. I imagine if any of it had been filmed and there had been internet and social media, then some of it may not have happened.
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Old 3rd Feb 2021, 17:05
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Less Hair

ego

/ˈiːɡəʊ/

noun
  • 1.a person's sense of self-esteem or self-importance:"he needed a boost to his ego"
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it's the need to be seen doing these things that is a result of that huge ego
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Old 4th Feb 2021, 02:49
  #40 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by aa777888 View Post
It really doesn't look any different than any Dennis Kenyon air show routine. Less dangerous even. Indeed, Dennis's fascination with dragging and spinning his skids around on the ground always scared me to death..
rotational or translational movement with the skids near any obstacle is a high-risk exercise, may look exciting but it is not far away from an RUD, and that puts spectators at risk. DK did that over surveyed areas, where he was aware of the surface, and away from giving the crowd a face full of blades 'n bits.

Originally Posted by aa777888 View Post
As an R44 pilot I doubt he was anywhere near busting MP or sideways speed limits. Inside the HV avoid area, though, certainly.

Disclaimer: yes, yes, air shows are best performed over less forbidding terrain and not over people. And no, I don't fly like that myself, although I do enjoy a good pirouette at IGE heights from time to time.
RHC doesn't provide a limitation on lateral or rearward flight, the theory of evolution covers that. The handling authorities are assessed hup to 17kts, all azimuths that is it. 27.1587(a)(2)(ii).

Section 5, Performance, page 5-6 gives the H-V curve. In doing that curve, the outcome is highly dependent on what your attitude and alignment is at touchdown. ß 27.87 Height-speed envelope.(a) If there is any combination of height and forward speed (including hover) under which a safe landing cannot be made under the applicable power failure condition in paragraph (b) of this section, a limiting height-speed envelope must be established (including all pertinent information) for that condition....
Doing 45kts backwards, the rotor itself is in the H-V area (but not the wording of the Part), but your alignment compromises the outcome badly. Yawing around to align the skids for the touchdown adds drag and takes energy, and it will need.... whatever... I don't know, nor does the guy in the 44. It is not a test point in the certification, so the driver is now a test pilot, good luck. As he has no information that the goof-off (manoeuver is too formal) is able to accept a failure, then. he is taking the bet that the engine and TR etc don't have a failure that requires him to lower the collective and land. We are used to seeing roll-ups of helicopters in autos that didn't work as planned, tail chops, etc, most occasions, the occupants survive. There is no crashworthiness testing for stupidity, so how a structure is going to fare going sideways at 40kts, backward at 50 or whatever is an open question. My first thought is it ends up with pallbearers involved. I've flown an R22 in a test at 56kts to the right and 55kts to the left, and yes, the helicopter can do it. I had the fire-ies on standby, was in Nomex, and helmet, and also didn't expect that an engine failure would end well, but had a need to get the test point. I was measuring the flapping, tail cone, and control loads... and glad to finish that in one piece. It was done down a hard surface runway vector, clear of obstacles to minimize the consequences of a touchdown in motion. It was also not done with the off the shelf R22, which hit the limit in flight to the right much earlier.

Helicopters can do amazing stuff, lots more fun than jets, but, they come with risk and if there is a task that needs to assume that risk, it should be done carefully. If risks can be avoided, then still doing that is a risk-taking event, and doing so near other people exposes the pilot to 91.13 sort of violations. Every state has their own reg against reckless operation.


[email protected] is absolutely correct on the power side. For a US copter, lateral flight to the left unloads the TR slightly until very high lateral speeds. flight to the right increases the TR demand and the limit left pedal can be reached quite easily which gives a limit to how fast the lateral flight can be flown, disregarding risk etc. The MR still operates as advertised, so ETL alters that power, but total power required going to the right is increased by the TR up to reaching full pedal.

With the dynamics of the MR, and TR, have a read of Prouty's (RIP) Performance, stability and Control, or for more maths, Wayne Johnson helicopter Theory, or Stepniewski, Padfield, Cooke and Fitzpatrick, Leishman, or any other of the myriad of SMEs on stability and control.... Flying laterally at high speed makes for interesting stuff as far as flapping, TPP/shaft clearances, and general bits of entertainment.

Shawn Coyle talks about H-V testing, in his podcasts and also in his books. All worth while reading before going out and flying doing weird stuff.

Final comment, note when you come out of the right-hand high-speed flight, that suddenly unloading the TR which swings the nose into the direction of flight will most times give a prompt overspeed of the engine (and MR) the governor is good, but not that good. Then have a look at the MM on overspeeds.... and then go check your bank account.

Last edited by fdr; 4th Feb 2021 at 03:34.
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