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NPAS News 2021

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NPAS News 2021

Old 27th Mar 2021, 00:49
  #61 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: York
Posts: 720
Originally Posted by the_flying_cop View Post
The only thing that doesn’t work is NPAS.
Very fair comment.
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Old 27th Mar 2021, 12:40
  #62 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Manchester
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GMP

When GMP made a case for getting the Defender it was sold to the bosses as a multi role aircraft leaning mainly towards surveillance but available to cover routine work when the Explorer was down. “Helicopter cover” worked well when we could get the height, the “helicopter heights” I was refering to was the 1000-1500 ft zone which the rotary was happy underneath the Manchester clag! The defender 4000 was more than capable of operating at those heights but it wasnt very agile and that coupled with the hi-tec (at the time) MX15 surveillance fit meant it struggled to provide true helicopter cover. However get up to flight levels over Manchester 6000-10,000 ft and it was awesome. It was possible to fly a lazy orbit or figure of 8 over the city and cover a huge area. Monitoring divisional channels it was possible to slew the camera with accuracy onto jobs in progress within seconds. The 24 hr operation was usually a force/divisional asset at night and mainly a surveillance asset during the day supporting the specialists. I didnt say other forces didnt operate successfully its just GMP took it to the next level !

Before we took delivery of our own defender we went to Hampshire and “Borrowed” their Defender to train and practice our own tactics so we were up and running for the commonwealt games.

Our operation was seen as a ground breaker which was eyed (and visited)with envy from units (civil & military) from all over the world.

The Defender wasnt perfect but it provided GMP and the wider UK agencies an amazing surveillance asset, it was struck down during austerity cuts to save GMP a £million, a figure which seems tiny by todays government spending.

I was very proud of what we at GMP and all the other ASUs provided to their forces and end users (Bobbies on the ground) that is why I look on in dismay at what remains of Police aviation in this country.
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Old 27th Mar 2021, 15:57
  #63 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Devon
Age: 66
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Police air cover - cost question

Re police aviation, how much would it cost to provide a new EC135, or equivelent airframe, for a single police force to operate? (i.e. helicopter, pilot, maintenance, and police officers 24/7.

How many police forces in the UK could afford their own helicopter or plane in 2021 ?

I noticed that Scotland have one police helicopter. How much does it cost to run that operation each year, and is it 24/7 ?

There is a wiki site about police aviation, but no mention of how much it costs to run an air unit in the UK each year?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police...United_Kingdom

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Old 27th Mar 2021, 17:38
  #64 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
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I didnt say other forces didnt operate successfully its just GMP took it to the next level !
As I said:

There’s an awful lot of blinkered and largely misplaced hubris in police aviation.
It’s always been that way.
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Old 29th Mar 2021, 21:30
  #65 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Manchester
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Night patrol GMP


Apologies, couldn't resist. GMPs Defender on night patrol 6000 ft I think. No the prop hadn't stopped it was the camera flash that froze it.
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Old 30th Mar 2021, 22:59
  #66 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
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Cabby,

Getting an answer on costs is probably a forlorn expectation.

For recent figures there is no point approaching Police Scotland for instance.... their December 2020 FOI reply to another declared it was a commercial secret, which is understandable as they lease from Babcock and there will be many rival bidders interested in the numbers. Oddly though that same FOI reply declared that the helicopter flew only 132 hours and 50 minutes from 01 January 2020 until 01 November 2020. Numbers that suggest they do not even need a helicopter!

Another reply emanating from Wales quoted £17,000 per flying hour which will make most of us wince.... and the same article stated that sort of number was rubbish. But is it?

It depends on how long your piece of string is. By the time you add the cost of the crew [usually left out of the answer because those numbers are eye watering], the new £2.5M hangar, ground rent, rates and the like the cost of the airframe seems like small change.

Estimates suggest that a new role equipped police helicopter will be about £7.5M, and the difference between two such airframes can be £1M based only on the sensor chosen so that is a pretty woolly estimate. That's if you buy it. If you lease it the first costs goes away but the yearly cost of the airframe the police operator can never own is boosted accordingly. Your 15 year old EC135 is worth virtually nothing but you probably do not see it for a month every 4 months while the maintenance organisation attempts to stop it falling apart. Chugging around in a private EC135 and doing 50 hours a year is a league away from expecting that same helicopter to dash here and there and circle a point on the ground for 1,000 hours a year.

20 years ago you may have been able to put a ball park figure of £1M on each airframe operated and a nominal cross charging rate of £1,000 an hour but even then there were arguments over whether the hourly figure to be charged was £1,000 or should have been £3,000.

Like the operator you will need to decide what is 'cost' before you can possibly answer half the question. The true cost could easily be that £17,000 an hour.
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Old 31st Mar 2021, 09:47
  #67 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Devon
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Originally Posted by PANews View Post
Cabby,

Getting an answer on costs is probably a forlorn expectation.

For recent figures there is no point approaching Police Scotland for instance.... their December 2020 FOI reply to another declared it was a commercial secret, which is understandable as they lease from Babcock and there will be many rival bidders interested in the numbers. Oddly though that same FOI reply declared that the helicopter flew only 132 hours and 50 minutes from 01 January 2020 until 01 November 2020. Numbers that suggest they do not even need a helicopter!

Another reply emanating from Wales quoted £17,000 per flying hour which will make most of us wince.... and the same article stated that sort of number was rubbish. But is it?

It depends on how long your piece of string is. By the time you add the cost of the crew [usually left out of the answer because those numbers are eye watering], the new £2.5M hangar, ground rent, rates and the like the cost of the airframe seems like small change.

Estimates suggest that a new role equipped police helicopter will be about £7.5M, and the difference between two such airframes can be £1M based only on the sensor chosen so that is a pretty woolly estimate. That's if you buy it. If you lease it the first costs goes away but the yearly cost of the airframe the police operator can never own is boosted accordingly. Your 15 year old EC135 is worth virtually nothing but you probably do not see it for a month every 4 months while the maintenance organisation attempts to stop it falling apart. Chugging around in a private EC135 and doing 50 hours a year is a league away from expecting that same helicopter to dash here and there and circle a point on the ground for 1,000 hours a year.

20 years ago you may have been able to put a ball park figure of £1M on each airframe operated and a nominal cross charging rate of £1,000 an hour but even then there were arguments over whether the hourly figure to be charged was £1,000 or should have been £3,000.

Like the operator you will need to decide what is 'cost' before you can possibly answer half the question. The true cost could easily be that £17,000 an hour.
Thanks PAN,
The figures are much higher than I expected.
I noticed another post a while ago which showed the payments made to NPAS by the different forces, and some were up to the £5k per hour figure.
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Old 1st Apr 2021, 06:26
  #68 (permalink)  
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I swear this is true. I just went to the page Benefits of NPAS (which did exist - I followed an old bookmark) and I got the following message:

The website encountered an unexpected error. Please try again later.
Try it yourself.
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Old 1st Apr 2021, 06:35
  #69 (permalink)  

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Not unexpected by some!
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Old 1st Apr 2021, 06:48
  #70 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
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https://www.npas.police.uk/what-we-d...-police-forces
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Old 1st Apr 2021, 09:01
  #71 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Taken from the NPAS web site

Statement in relation to The Times Article on Friday 19 March

Friday, 19th March, 2021

T/ACC Scott Bisset, Chief Operating Officer of NPAS, said:

"The aeroplanes are providing support to operational policing as part of a blended fleet which predominantly includes helicopters. They have, and do, operate across both urban and rural areas and whilst based at Doncaster Airport do use other airfields. The aircraft have some limitations which means they cannot operate without restriction at all airfields which was always anticipated. They can however operate in weather conditions which helicopters cannot. Since January 2020 they have been effectively deployed to 1300 incidents supporting police forces across England and Wales.

"Recently, the NPAS National Board commissioned an independent review of the aeroplanes which identified that the aircraft have excellent endurance which make them particularly suitable for policing large public events, conducting missing people searches and prolonged vehicle pursuits. The costs of operating the aeroplanes are approximately a third of that of a helicopter in comparison.

"NPAS is currently restructuring to meet the revised air support requirements of the Police Service which were recently agreed by the National Police Chiefs Council (NPCC) in Autumn of 2020. NPAS remain fully committed to providing a value for money Service to support Forces in keeping the public safe with the support of PCCs, Chiefs and the Home Office. Future collaboration and partnering options will also be explored.

"The original cost of police aviation prior to the formation of NPAS was in the region of £55m (£65m at today’s prices) and NPAS have reduced those costs significantly from the 2012 baseline. NPAS ran an efficiency programme during 2020/21 that has identified further savings. The recent budget set in February 2021 was agreed at £42.5m for England and Wales."


More smoke and mirrors !!!
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Old 1st Apr 2021, 10:05
  #72 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: 3nm SE of TNT, UK
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".......They can however operate in weather conditions which helicopters cannot........"

Actually that should read "The modified P68 can FLY in weather conditions which helicopters cannot". However, in order to "operate", the sensors attached to the airframe have to be able to see the ground or there is no point in "Flying".


Last edited by Fortyodd2; 2nd Apr 2021 at 07:34.
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Old 1st Apr 2021, 19:49
  #73 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Warrington, UK
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The original cost of police aviation prior to the formation of NPAS was in the region of £55m (£65m at today’s prices) and NPAS have reduced those costs significantly from the 2012 baseline.
True, but then we had 33 helicopters and two FW flying around 23,000 hours at an average £1710 per hour. Now we are down to what, 15 aircraft(?) flying 11,500 hours. NPAS went from charging for hours flown to Actioned calls in 2016/17. The year before the average hourly rate was £2400.
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Old 14th Apr 2021, 20:56
  #74 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Yorkshire and The Humber
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Anyone know what's happening with the changing of ownership to all NPAS aircraft?

I was curious about G-POLB's lengthy time away offline, I always check G-INFO to see if anythings changed... to my surprise its displaying 'Potential change of registered ownership in progress' in the 'Registered Owner Details' section and goes on to this:

Open aircraft registration cases

Case name:Change of Registered OwnershipOpen date:22-Mar-2021Review date:13-Apr-2021
It is displaying the same message for all NPAS aircraft too.
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Old 15th Apr 2021, 10:12
  #75 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
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It may turn out to be a major alteration but the entry for G-SUFK suggests that it may simply be a change from the Police and Crime Commissioner to the Chief Constable.

The May 6 elections may be the clue... according to Google .... the Office of PCC (OPCC) will transfer to the Mayoral West Yorkshire Combined Authority. The current registered keeper goes on May 6.
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Old 17th May 2021, 06:53
  #76 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: UK
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I see they are still spouting rubbish like this .....

"Flying at average speeds of 138mph, police air support saves officers on the ground valuable time when it matters."

An Average of 138 "mph" eh ? - There must be times when they go MUCH faster than that then, to achieve the Average.

Coconutty
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Old 17th Jun 2021, 16:11
  #77 (permalink)  
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More NPAS news

So…
https://www.westyorks-ca.gov.uk/poli...-service-npas/
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Old 17th Jun 2021, 17:32
  #78 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Lost again...
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So to translate:

"We know it's been a fiasco from the start, under our leadership and we know that the other forces are getting ready to pull the plug so we're bailing out so it can fail with someone else's name on it."
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Old 22nd Jun 2021, 08:20
  #79 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
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The Leader of Epping Forest District Council has written to Commissioner Cressida Dick to object to the Metropolitan Police returning their air operations to Lippitts Hill.

https://www.eppingforestguardian.co....-hill-airbase/

Some minor errors in the text.... The Met first used Lippitts Hill in 1967 and built its first facilities there from 1976. The Met ASU was officially launched in November 1980 but was already in being by then. As we know they never wanted to leave there let alone join NPAS.

The council has a 25 year lease contract on the North Weald base with West Yorkshire Police (NPAS) not the Met who continue to own and operate Lippitts Hill.

https://www.eppingforestdc.gov.uk/re...-base-opposed/


NPAS goes next year making it quite a sticky mess for the Met and the council it seems.


Last edited by PANews; 22nd Jun 2021 at 08:23. Reason: Original EFDC news item link added
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Old 22nd Jun 2021, 14:31
  #80 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Devon
Age: 66
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NPAS next lead force?

With the West Yorks mayor giving a years notice to quit as the lead force, are there any favourites to run NPAS in a years time such as Liverpool or Manchester forces?

How many staff work at the NPAS HQ? Will they have to relocate?

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