helicopter down in the Black Isle Scotland
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Joined: Feb 2003
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From: Scotland
helicopter down in the Black Isle Scotland
Anybody got any more information?
BTW the "Black Isle" is NOT an island - its a peninsula just north of Inverness on the east coast of the Moray Firth.
BTW the "Black Isle" is NOT an island - its a peninsula just north of Inverness on the east coast of the Moray Firth.
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From: Kammbronn
Joined: Sep 2002
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From: Great South East, tired and retired
An autogyro took out a mate in the Philippines last week too. Silly man had gone from R22 to R44 to brand-new B206, to new AS 350, to new EC120...to these...poor Ferris. (No, his surname wasn't Bueller)
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From: EGDC
A colleague who is a very experienced ex-mil pilot, flys autogyros and is of the opinion that they are much safer than helicopters - they are permanently in autorotation so an engine failure is not much of a drama and they are very stable to fly.
Their vulnerability is crosswinds for take off and landing as preventing drift is more difficult.
Their vulnerability is crosswinds for take off and landing as preventing drift is more difficult.
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From: Brantisvogan
Originally Posted by [email protected]
A colleague who is a very experienced ex-mil pilot, flys autogyros and is of the opinion that they are much safer than helicopters - they are permanently in autorotation so an engine failure is not much of a drama and they are very stable to fly.
Their vulnerability is crosswinds for take off and landing as preventing drift is more difficult.
Their vulnerability is crosswinds for take off and landing as preventing drift is more difficult.
Joined: Jun 2004
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From: UK Scotland
Sad to hear of this and condolences to friends and family.
I know little about autogyros.Are they effected by low g like teethering head helicopters.
R
I know little about autogyros.Are they effected by low g like teethering head helicopters.
R
Last edited by RINKER; 13th November 2020 at 07:55.
Joined: Feb 2000
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From: UK
Are they effected by low g like teethering head helicopters.
Yes, Yes and Yes again!! In the 70s/80s they became quite popular (possibly on the back of Ken Wallis's 'Little Nellie'), especially home-builds. The majority of incidents arose from inadvertent or intentional entry into low G territory. a definite no-no. They can be safe - viz Ken Wallis. Unfortunalely, they are 'fun-machines' (and much marketed as such) - a potential problem for the unwary!
Yes, Yes and Yes again!! In the 70s/80s they became quite popular (possibly on the back of Ken Wallis's 'Little Nellie'), especially home-builds. The majority of incidents arose from inadvertent or intentional entry into low G territory. a definite no-no. They can be safe - viz Ken Wallis. Unfortunalely, they are 'fun-machines' (and much marketed as such) - a potential problem for the unwary!
Joined: Mar 2009
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From: UK
Originally Posted by [email protected]
A colleague who is a very experienced ex-mil pilot, flys autogyros and is of the opinion that they are much safer than helicopters - they are permanently in autorotation so an engine failure is not much of a drama and they are very stable to fly.
Their vulnerability is crosswinds for take off and landing as preventing drift is more difficult.
Their vulnerability is crosswinds for take off and landing as preventing drift is more difficult.
Fine machines but quite unforgiving, as is so much in aviation. Sad news.
Joined: Jul 2012
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From: scotland
I have just crafted a response to the criticism of gyros in the above posts, unfortunately it has disappeared into cyberspace. I wrote form my experience as an ex AAC pilot, retired 30yr North Sea pilot, fixed-wing pilot and qualified gyro instructor. In short, all the negative points mentioned can be countered and stem from a lack of knowledge of modern gyro aerodynamics. The current gyros are far different from Ken Wallis and similar machines and exhibit none of the nasty gotchas that they had. Like any aircraft they have no-go areas but generally have less vices than the average sport fixed wing. Modern gyros are not to be feared and I feel far safer in a gyro than in a Cessna.
I would be very happy to answer any question that you might have.
Dick.
I would be very happy to answer any question that you might have.
Dick.
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 23
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From: scotland
Biscuit74,
Very forgiving; the low level speed judgement is no different from any other aircraft.
Re the airspeed sensitivity; my gyro, a stable-mate to the Cavalon, has a speed range of 0-120mph. Vertical descents can be made a zero or negative airspeed, the rotor does not care where the air is coming from. RRPM, however is as important as on a helicopter. Luckily it is largely self-regulating except in the low G regime.
Modern gyros are very safe and a lot of fun but there is a lot of myth and misunderstanding about their aerodynamics, even in the gyro community. There is also an entrenched bias generated by the old style machines proving so dangerous. That this still pertains is very disappointing.
Dick
Very forgiving; the low level speed judgement is no different from any other aircraft.
Re the airspeed sensitivity; my gyro, a stable-mate to the Cavalon, has a speed range of 0-120mph. Vertical descents can be made a zero or negative airspeed, the rotor does not care where the air is coming from. RRPM, however is as important as on a helicopter. Luckily it is largely self-regulating except in the low G regime.
Modern gyros are very safe and a lot of fun but there is a lot of myth and misunderstanding about their aerodynamics, even in the gyro community. There is also an entrenched bias generated by the old style machines proving so dangerous. That this still pertains is very disappointing.
Dick
Joined: Jun 2002
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From: Nanaimo (CAC8)
The current gyros are far different from Ken Wallis and similar machines and exhibit none of the nasty gotchas that they had.
What were the "nasty gotchas" and how have they been tamed?
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From: EGDC
I gather there are two main issues, one on take off and one on landing - on take off you have very high rotor drag if you try to bring the nose up too soon and can end up with low speed and full power neither climbing nor accelerating and the answer is to lower the nose slightly which reduces drag and allows acceleration.
On landing the problem is yaw control since the rudder is usually behind the prop - good for take off with the propwash on the rudder but bad for landing when the power is off and the rudder can lose effectiveness at a higher speed.
As in all flying machines - poor technique will catch you out.
On landing the problem is yaw control since the rudder is usually behind the prop - good for take off with the propwash on the rudder but bad for landing when the power is off and the rudder can lose effectiveness at a higher speed.
As in all flying machines - poor technique will catch you out.
Avoid imitations
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From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Many of the accidents are/were caused by poor pitch stability caused by lack of a horizontal stabiliser and a pusher prop.
However, I’d happily try one of Ron Herron’s “Little Wing” designs, which don’t suffer from this due to the fact that they have a tractor engine and a fixed wing type fuselage with a tail, harking back to the old Pitcairn and similar designs. Especially attractive if fitted with the optional radial engine
However, I’d happily try one of Ron Herron’s “Little Wing” designs, which don’t suffer from this due to the fact that they have a tractor engine and a fixed wing type fuselage with a tail, harking back to the old Pitcairn and similar designs. Especially attractive if fitted with the optional radial engine
Joined: Jul 2012
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From: scotland
India two four,
The nasties with the old gimbal head were caused by dynamic instability due to the design of the head. Any gust-induced pitch excursions were dynamically unstable i.e. a positive gust lead to a pitch up with no corrective damping. this was exacerbated by little pitch reference due to no bodywork in front of you. In consequence pitch diversions could be picked up late and over-controlled leading to PIO and a divergent phugoid followed by a push over into negative G. This was a killer. The push-over still is a killer but the modern gyros have a horizontal tailplane of sufficient volume to damp out pitch oscillations, the head has an offset pitch hinge balanced by a spring which has a self-correcting couple and there is a normal fuselage to give better pitch reference. The old style gyros can be flown but they need careful handling.
Crab,
The TO technique is to pre-rotate the rotor to 200 rrpm on the wheel brakes, release brakes, stick fully back and full power. As speed builds the nose will rise; keep the nosewheel just off the ground and let the speed continue to rise. Forward stick needs to be fed in to maintain what is called wheel balancing. As the speed rises the gyro will fly itself off with rising rrpm, there is no positive rotation needed, the gyro flies in its own time. Rotor drag is certainly a problem on take off. A more back-tilted rotor will speed rrpm rise but quickly the drag will overcome power available and TO will not occur. Wheel balancing is the best compromise between rotor angle of attack and rotor drag. As for landing, the modern gyros have sufficient vertical tail volume to maintain rudder authority down to the point when the nosewheel touches. I have never run out of rudder authority in over 400 hrs.
As with any a/c competent training to learn the correct handling techniques is essential. There was an idea in the past that gyros were so easy to fly that you could teach yourself, this lead to accidents and fatalities.
ShyTorque,
See my comments re difference between old and modern gyros.
CJ and RINKER,
The cause is not yet known, AFAIK, so please do not jump to conclusions.
As to the Cavalon itself, it is a nice stable cruising machine. 560 kg AUW, about 300 kg empty, tanks for 5 hrs and a c100 mph cruise. As usual load has to be split between fuel and pax.
Dick.
The nasties with the old gimbal head were caused by dynamic instability due to the design of the head. Any gust-induced pitch excursions were dynamically unstable i.e. a positive gust lead to a pitch up with no corrective damping. this was exacerbated by little pitch reference due to no bodywork in front of you. In consequence pitch diversions could be picked up late and over-controlled leading to PIO and a divergent phugoid followed by a push over into negative G. This was a killer. The push-over still is a killer but the modern gyros have a horizontal tailplane of sufficient volume to damp out pitch oscillations, the head has an offset pitch hinge balanced by a spring which has a self-correcting couple and there is a normal fuselage to give better pitch reference. The old style gyros can be flown but they need careful handling.
Crab,
The TO technique is to pre-rotate the rotor to 200 rrpm on the wheel brakes, release brakes, stick fully back and full power. As speed builds the nose will rise; keep the nosewheel just off the ground and let the speed continue to rise. Forward stick needs to be fed in to maintain what is called wheel balancing. As the speed rises the gyro will fly itself off with rising rrpm, there is no positive rotation needed, the gyro flies in its own time. Rotor drag is certainly a problem on take off. A more back-tilted rotor will speed rrpm rise but quickly the drag will overcome power available and TO will not occur. Wheel balancing is the best compromise between rotor angle of attack and rotor drag. As for landing, the modern gyros have sufficient vertical tail volume to maintain rudder authority down to the point when the nosewheel touches. I have never run out of rudder authority in over 400 hrs.
As with any a/c competent training to learn the correct handling techniques is essential. There was an idea in the past that gyros were so easy to fly that you could teach yourself, this lead to accidents and fatalities.
ShyTorque,
See my comments re difference between old and modern gyros.
CJ and RINKER,
The cause is not yet known, AFAIK, so please do not jump to conclusions.
As to the Cavalon itself, it is a nice stable cruising machine. 560 kg AUW, about 300 kg empty, tanks for 5 hrs and a c100 mph cruise. As usual load has to be split between fuel and pax.
Dick.
Joined: Nov 2000
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From: White Waltham, Prestwick & Calgary
"BTW the "Black Isle" is NOT an island - its a peninsula just north of Inverness on the east coast of the Moray Firth."
Beg to differ - there is a real Black Isle on the way into Fort William - summat to do with the Campbells
Beg to differ - there is a real Black Isle on the way into Fort William - summat to do with the Campbells