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Need a fuel top up?

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Need a fuel top up?

Old 23rd May 2020, 03:18
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Helicopters have flight manuals The only reliable answer is to comply with it
Just checked the TCDS re deisel for the French Astazou and Artouste engines and the following are approved with associated temperature limits, so they were operating in accordance with the flight manual. All legal.

Automotive Diesel Oil DCEA/21 C
- VVF 800 DF2 TS.10.003 F54 Not to be used at OAT below -5° C
- VVF 800 DF1 Not to be used at OAT below - 15°C
- VVF 800 DFA F56 Not to be used at OAT below - 15°C
Gasoil O 7120 STM MIL-F-16884 DEF 2402 (47/0 DIESO) F75 Not to be used at OAT below -5°C
Gasoil 20 7120STM DEF 2402 (47/20 DIESO) F76 Not to be used at OAT below 0°C
Illuminating Oil DCEA/11C VV-K211 DEF 2403 F58 Not to be used at OAT below - 15°C
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Old 23rd May 2020, 03:52
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Given the length of the fuel hose I'm thinking their station has been used before as I can't see a need for a fifty foot fuel hose at a normal service station
It's a fuel station in the outback of Queensland where road trains would frequent servicing the cattle stations in the area, hence the long hose.



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Old 23rd May 2020, 04:27
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Here's the Queensland AW139 filling with diesel at Belyando Crossing, west of Moranbah; not all that uncommon given the vast distances in Queensland and the paucity of Jet A1 bowsers









http://www.facebook.com/qldambulance...7522879279425/

When I was flying Allouette IIs and 3s in Nigeria we could drop into almost any oil company pipe yard for a drum of diesel if we were 'caught short' for Jet A1
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Old 23rd May 2020, 06:55
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Diesel not on the FAA or EASA TCDS John, just an Oz thing?
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Old 23rd May 2020, 09:20
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Originally Posted by megan View Post
Diesel not on the FAA or EASA TCDS John, just an Oz thing?
Short answer: I don’t know. But if you follow the Facebook link there is an answer to that question

Queensland Government AirCorey Dark Good afternoon Corey!
No this isn’t a PR stunt.😀 One of the great features of the AW139 Aircraft which is operated by QGAir is that they can run on Diesel fuel! This is especially helpful for our long distance Search and Rescue missions in the outback were Jet fuel can be hard to find. Thanks
So I would lay a farthing to Threadneedle Street that QG Air have appropriate approval from CASA.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 11:33
  #26 (permalink)  

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The problem with diesel is the possibility of low temperature fuel waxing in the airframe fuel filters; so even though the engine can safely burn it, it might not be approved.

It may be that an aircraft with heated fuel filters is safe, if not not allowed. Certainly the Puma HC1 didn't have heated fuel filters (so no diesel approval and FSII needed for Jet fuel), later Agusta helicopters do and it's allowed by the RFM.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 12:07
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Twist & Shout View Post
Pretty common “in the old days”.
I can remember planning via roadhouses on Robinson ferry flights across Australia
We still had leaded fuel (“Super”) at the “servos”.
Handy, as I was often flying IFR (I Follow Roads) - just prior to GPS.
Old.
Yes, I have done the same thing. Stopped off at a Nullarbor roadhouse one time and told young Einstein that I wanted some Avgas. " We has auto gas and bottles ob camping gas, but does no 'ave Avgas"!
Actually they did and I had to buy a full drum. (wasn't a R22 or R44) The place had an airstrip at the back, but the boss said he did not hear me land. Lucky it was an airstrip as needed a bit of a run at it to get airborne!

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Old 23rd May 2020, 19:46
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Originally Posted by megan View Post
Diesel not on the FAA or EASA TCDS...
FYI: a number of limitations, like fuels/oils, etc., were moved from the TCDS to the RFM or MM on later aircraft/engines. The TCDS is developed by the producer (OEM) and only approved by the FAA/CAA so that also adds to a variance where that required information is found.
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Old 24th May 2020, 00:22
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So I would lay a farthing to Threadneedle Street that QG Air have appropriate approval from CASA
Thanks John, I wasn't suggesting it wasn't all above board, just wondered if diesel was a local approval. Thanks too wrench for your above post, but I thought the TCDS would have the latest info, the FAA TCDS for the 139 is up to revision 14 and dated .June 21, 2018, perhaps the FAA are catching up with revisions, who knows. The engine TCDS revision 5 dated November 15, 2017 calls for fuel conforming to P&W Spec. CPW 204, which is a wide cut kerosene.
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Old 24th May 2020, 14:40
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Originally Posted by megan View Post
but I thought the TCDS would have the latest info,...
FWIW: It should but only for the info that was included/required to be on the TCDS initially. Plus a TCDS is not normally revised on a regular basis. In general (FAA), prior to AFM/RFMs becoming a certification requirement the TCDS, and its preceding Specifications, contained a lot more info as it was the "only" approved method to comply with documenting certain type design requirements. Once AFM/RFMs became mandatory the FAA allowed certain limitations to be listed in the AFM/RFM (or other approved source) instead of the TCDS. Add to the fact revising a AFM/RFM is much easier than revising a TCDS as it must go through an ACO process. So while one TCDS might show fuel limitations, another TCDS may not or simply have a note to see the AFM/RFM/MM/SB for the fuel limitations. For example, I believe in a RR 250 C-20 TCDS it refers the fuel limitations to the MM, yet in a Bell 206B TCDS it references the actual fuel specifications. In some cases like P&WC, there are Service Bulletins that provide additional fuel limitations.
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Old 25th May 2020, 00:31
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Thanks wrench, sure gets complicated, every day is a learning day.
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Old 25th May 2020, 14:18
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The TCDS scheme is archaic, confusing and riddled with errors to the point of uselessness for anybody other than an entrenched bureaucrat. The 737MAX fiasco and it's tortured sheet proves that (A16WE, revision 65).
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Old 26th May 2020, 00:24
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Unfortunately it's the only source of information somebody has who doesn't possess a flight manual.
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Old 26th May 2020, 00:32
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Originally Posted by JimEli View Post
The TCDS scheme is archaic, confusing and riddled with errors to the point of uselessness for anybody other than an entrenched bureaucrat. The 737MAX fiasco and it's tortured sheet proves that (A16WE, revision 65).
FWIW: have no clue in using a TCDS on a 737, but have used them on a semi-regular basis over the years on GA rotor/fixed wing aircraft for the issue/reissue of AWC/CoAs, compliance of conformity checks, etc. While I'm about as far away as you can get from an "entrenched bureaucrat," I would hate to see what type of document you would prefer to use for these regular certificate issuances/checks considering a TCDS is but a "sliver" of the aircraft certification documentation process.
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Old 26th May 2020, 01:07
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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The problem with diesel is the possibility of low temperature fuel waxing in the airframe fuel filters;
Pretty rare to need such things in the middle of the GAFA* where it is mostly darn hot.





*Great Australian F*** All, there is nuffin' out there.
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Old 26th May 2020, 02:08
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wrench1 View Post
FWIW: have no clue in using a TCDS on a 737, but have used them on a semi-regular basis over the years on GA rotor/fixed wing aircraft for the issue/reissue of AWC/CoAs, compliance of conformity checks, etc. While I'm about as far away as you can get from an "entrenched bureaucrat," I would hate to see what type of document you would prefer to use for these regular certificate issuances/checks considering a TCDS is but a "sliver" of the aircraft certification documentation process.
For starters, the 737 TCDS covers 14 series, the latest variants bearing no resemblance to the original. Bringing it closer to home, the TCDS for the AS-350 (H9EU) encompasses 10 aircraft, including the EC-130 variant. My quick, cursory glance of the B3 type section lists maximum weights, rotor speeds, and T4 limits all of which are different in the RFM. Very little is correct. The system is badly broken.
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Old 27th May 2020, 02:50
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Pretty rare to need such things in the middle of the GAFA* where it is mostly darn hot
That's after the sun comes up a bit and you've already scraped the ice off during the pre flight AC.


Last edited by megan; 27th May 2020 at 03:02.
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