Kobe Bryant killed in S76 crash
I remember Nick Lappos saying many years ago, if we spent the time at the SIM teaching people how not to fly into mountains instead of simulating tail rotor failures, we'd save many lives.
@SLFMS: Thanks for that IIMC story. Let's say I (at least once) experienced "got behind the aircraft" when going V to I and yeah, must work hard to catch back up.
Speak for yourself. 
Ah, that's different, and I think this makes sense. If you don't think you are up to it, flying in a helicopter is no place for anyone. On that I suspect you and I would agree 100%.
FWIW: the Old Harry Reason's article from years ago about "helicopter pilots are different" still applies, don't you think?
"If something hasn't yet gone wrong, something may soon" mindset that among helo pilots is healthy may be deemed as strange among the general populace.
Not sure what percentage of helo pilots that represents.
But do you think that a lot of commercial pilots think "I always like to get better at my craft" or something like that?
I know one for sure who does (HEMS guy up in Oregon who I flew with years ago when we were both in the Navy. It's just the way he is).
Might have been that way.
Someone asked about Kobe's experience with aviation: as far as I understand it, his experience was as passenger, and at one time, owner of a helicopter.
Oh, geez. Oh, Jesus H. Christ. Whenever I read crap like the above, the question I always have is, "Do you know any helicopter pilots? Have you ever actually *met* any real helicopter pilots?" Because if SASless had met, say, two of them, he would understand that every darn helicopter pilot privately (and often publicly) considers himself to be the best in the business.
In 40 years in this business, I have NEVER met a commercial pilot who honestly thought that his skills were even slightly not up to par.
FWIW: the Old Harry Reason's article from years ago about "helicopter pilots are different" still applies, don't you think?
"If something hasn't yet gone wrong, something may soon" mindset that among helo pilots is healthy may be deemed as strange among the general populace.
The thought is preposterous. It's quite the opposite, in fact. Every helicopter believes down deep in his soul that he can handle anything...ANYTHING...that gets thrown at him with the coolness of Chuck Yeager. "Rotor falls off? Heck, I'll just call a Mayday, pop the floats and set the beotch down! What, you mean you couldn't??" Read some of the pompous, self-righteous, over-the-top comments over on the JH "bad" board and you'll get the idea.
No commercial pilot worth his salt is gonna engage in a little navel-gazing and then say to himself, "Ya know, I'm really not as good as I think I am."
I know one for sure who does (HEMS guy up in Oregon who I flew with years ago when we were both in the Navy. It's just the way he is).
estimate of what happened
Someone asked about Kobe's experience with aviation: as far as I understand it, his experience was as passenger, and at one time, owner of a helicopter.
Mr. Lappos was also very much a proponent of expanding the IFR Infrastructure to afford far more access and flexibility for Rotorcraft IFR operations.
Sikorsky did a lot of work in testing and proving Rotorcraft related procedures and technology.
Perhaps had the Industry and FAA embraced some of those ideas and concepts we might have an improved safety record these days.
Sikorsky did a lot of work in testing and proving Rotorcraft related procedures and technology.
Perhaps had the Industry and FAA embraced some of those ideas and concepts we might have an improved safety record these days.
Avoid imitations
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Me, too. But then, I've only been flying RW for my living for forty years, so I've still got an awful lot to learn.
At a recent session at Flight Safety, the instructor suggested if you encounter IMC conditions, you should climb until above the cloud layer.
If you fly in the flat lands around Dallas, perhaps that would work.
But if you’re in the mountains or in a valley, that will most likely be a fatal mistake.
SVFR or VFR means maintaining visual contact with the ground, not rocketing through the scud at 130knots and initiating a climb.
First thing that should be done as wx deteriorates is to slow down, maintain visual contact with the ground, and turn around if there is a wall of fog off the nose.
The older age one achieves, the easier it is to just say “no”.
This was CFIT or the pilot had a jammer.
If you fly in the flat lands around Dallas, perhaps that would work.
But if you’re in the mountains or in a valley, that will most likely be a fatal mistake.
SVFR or VFR means maintaining visual contact with the ground, not rocketing through the scud at 130knots and initiating a climb.
First thing that should be done as wx deteriorates is to slow down, maintain visual contact with the ground, and turn around if there is a wall of fog off the nose.
The older age one achieves, the easier it is to just say “no”.
This was CFIT or the pilot had a jammer.
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I don’t know what avionics this aircraft was equipped with, but even ForeFlight for $200 per year would provide moving terrain maps, which probably would have helped more than distractions of numerous radio frequencies, while getting caught “special VFR” in the soup, near terrain. Tragic.
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Neither directly prevents accidents. They assist with post-accident/incident investigation which sometimes results in corrective action for the future which indirectly prevents future accidents. For this accident, it's likely a FDR would have found aircraft systems were operating normally and flight controls reacting properly to control inputs right up to impact with terrain.
The FAA's two basic charters (Safety of Flight and promoting growth of aviation) require them to balance risk and benefit. Remember the NTSB recommendation to prohibit "lap infants" on airliners? FAA's holistic analysis determined it would be safer on an individual basis but would increase overall risk and fatalities, and was not adopted.
Paxing All Over The World
SASless
From 1981 onwards the USA took a very different view of regulation under Reagan and many aspects of aviation were affected. The UK followed a very similar line of political practice. We are where we are and, under present USA and UK govt, the relaxation of regulations will continue.
But, as we know, prangs will continue to happen and this error (whatever it turns out to be) will be repeated.
Perhaps had the Industry and FAA embraced some of those ideas and concepts we might have an improved safety record these days.
But, as we know, prangs will continue to happen and this error (whatever it turns out to be) will be repeated.
I think most rotary wing pilots are actually highly self critical. Yes I m sure we all have done things that on reflection we sit down and say WTF was i dong. So I am with Shy and certainly all the pilots I know with a few exceptions don't think of themselves as heli God's
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flight path visualization. NTSB stated aircraft had climbed to 2300’ on a southerly heading before descending steeply to impact in a left bank at 1100’.
https://youtu.be/XSHpbGhy3Ko
https://youtu.be/XSHpbGhy3Ko
To your point regarding IFR infrastructure, SAS, you raise a particularly relevant aspect of this tragic event. The aircraft technology to fly precise separate helicopter routes and approaches to a GPS/inertial hover at a preselected point already exists and is in production. ( this isn’t a proposal to enable/approve approaches to school parking lots by the way ). In the case at hand, if the infrastructure existed,an IFR route to Camarillo,for example would have removed the weather factors. Helicopter VFR routes exist in two large cities and work. The air vehicles, flight control technology, navigation technology, and precise/automated aircraft position technology are all positioned to fly helicopter IFR routes. The challenge is deciding to do it.
Perhaps there are two types of commercial pilot - the ones that SAS knows who do stay self-aware and acknowledge their human failings - and the ones that FH1100 knows who sound destined to own their own smoking hillside resting place.
Salute!
@ Crab thank you from a surviving "light" pilot. I learned many survival skills from "close calls" because I had barely enuf skill to recover from, and come home. I thank my instructors and the old farts in the ready room and their war stories. I always questioned my reactions to unusual events after getting back home. You know, engine failure, structural damage, and those other minor problems we all faced at one time or another.
I am glad we are getting into the IIMC discussion, because until you see it for real, it's hard to make the other guy unnerstan how serious the situation is. And altho I am not a rotor head, I escorted helos on combat SAR missions in my previous life in two different planes and time frames, but same theater of ops. Depending upon the monsoon season we had lottsa scud and low clouds on one side of the mounts, and other times nil. SAS can testify, as he flew helos about same time as I and same places.
One post mentioned the pere-planned maneuver should you encounter a sudden fog front or cloud layer after cresting a ridge. So we survivors of such encounters can thank our "practice" imaginary missions that we envisioned while waiting in line for the haircut.
I have a bad feeling about the cause of this crash due to preliminary data indicating both a higher than normal speed and rapid descent and heading change. Doesn't sound like a standard CFIT. There has to be something else besides a turn the wrong way at a lower altitude to avoid the rocks and a transition to attitude, power and speed on the gauges.
As usual, I continue to give the pilot/crew a break. OTOH, I have lost about a half dozen friends due to CFIT or poor navigation/situation awareness or spatial disorientation in both commercial airlines and military planes.
Gums sends...
@ Crab thank you from a surviving "light" pilot. I learned many survival skills from "close calls" because I had barely enuf skill to recover from, and come home. I thank my instructors and the old farts in the ready room and their war stories. I always questioned my reactions to unusual events after getting back home. You know, engine failure, structural damage, and those other minor problems we all faced at one time or another.
I am glad we are getting into the IIMC discussion, because until you see it for real, it's hard to make the other guy unnerstan how serious the situation is. And altho I am not a rotor head, I escorted helos on combat SAR missions in my previous life in two different planes and time frames, but same theater of ops. Depending upon the monsoon season we had lottsa scud and low clouds on one side of the mounts, and other times nil. SAS can testify, as he flew helos about same time as I and same places.
One post mentioned the pere-planned maneuver should you encounter a sudden fog front or cloud layer after cresting a ridge. So we survivors of such encounters can thank our "practice" imaginary missions that we envisioned while waiting in line for the haircut.
I have a bad feeling about the cause of this crash due to preliminary data indicating both a higher than normal speed and rapid descent and heading change. Doesn't sound like a standard CFIT. There has to be something else besides a turn the wrong way at a lower altitude to avoid the rocks and a transition to attitude, power and speed on the gauges.
As usual, I continue to give the pilot/crew a break. OTOH, I have lost about a half dozen friends due to CFIT or poor navigation/situation awareness or spatial disorientation in both commercial airlines and military planes.
Gums sends...
Originally Posted by [email protected]
Perhaps there are two types of commercial pilot - the ones that SAS knows who do stay self-aware and acknowledge their human failings - and the ones that FH1100 knows who sound destined to own their own smoking hillside resting place.
There are those that want to opine about how legal the flight was.
Others about how mundane the conditions were relative to their own experience.
It isn't surprising that these accidents keep happening, as long as there are people willing to pay, there are people willing to fly.
Ops normal.
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I feel the same. The narrative of the NTSB is "we cannot answer any speculative questions, we can only deal with known facts - and we know nothing at this stage", yet there is this apparent snipe at the FAA for "failing to implement" their recommendations intended to avoid a specific cause of accident. They are indirectly suggesting the cause before they've even begun the investigation.
P.S.: From the NtSB's "Most Wanted" list: "Part 135 operators must implement safety management systems that include a flight data monitoring program," while this doesn't require a FDR per se, but rather a device where the data can be more easily downloaded from, the collected data is commonly copied off theFDR interface. This means that adding a FDR to a cockpit that doesn't have one (yet) might be a crucial step towards introducing that kind of safety management system.
Last edited by Musician; 29th Jan 2020 at 23:20. Reason: safety management systems postscript
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Apparently the Heli was flying at 130kts just below cloud before the eventful left turn , and a lot of comment suggests 130kts is a bit fast in those met. conditions .
Im thinking the Pilot felt he was running out of time to get his VIP to destination ontime , and may have been going faster than desirable , and took a chance on getting through on the 101 highway route , because of the earlier substantial holding delay south of Burbank , and subsequent routing north of Van Nuys .
Could pilot have questioned Burbank ATC a bit more about his holding delay , or the unexpected routing north of Van Nuys , rather than just accept it ? , and then maybe bought himself some time for options later ?
Heli could also have continued West on 118 towards Camarillo in maybe marginal VFR ,or climbing above the layer and then IR approach to Camarillo , or had he already decided after passing over Van Nuys to then aim for a set down somewhere near Mamba destination Thousand Lakes to give the pax an on-time arrival ?
We may never know , but hope to learn !
Im thinking the Pilot felt he was running out of time to get his VIP to destination ontime , and may have been going faster than desirable , and took a chance on getting through on the 101 highway route , because of the earlier substantial holding delay south of Burbank , and subsequent routing north of Van Nuys .
Could pilot have questioned Burbank ATC a bit more about his holding delay , or the unexpected routing north of Van Nuys , rather than just accept it ? , and then maybe bought himself some time for options later ?
Heli could also have continued West on 118 towards Camarillo in maybe marginal VFR ,or climbing above the layer and then IR approach to Camarillo , or had he already decided after passing over Van Nuys to then aim for a set down somewhere near Mamba destination Thousand Lakes to give the pax an on-time arrival ?
We may never know , but hope to learn !
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At a recent session at Flight Safety, the instructor suggested if you encounter IMC conditions, you should climb until above the cloud layer.
If you fly in the flat lands around Dallas, perhaps that would work.
But if you’re in the mountains or in a valley, that will most likely be a fatal mistake.
SVFR or VFR means maintaining visual contact with the ground, not rocketing through the scud at 130knots and initiating a climb.
First thing that should be done as wx deteriorates is to slow down, maintain visual contact with the ground, and turn around if there is a wall of fog off the nose.
The older age one achieves, the easier it is to just say “no”.
This was CFIT or the pilot had a jammer.
If you fly in the flat lands around Dallas, perhaps that would work.
But if you’re in the mountains or in a valley, that will most likely be a fatal mistake.
SVFR or VFR means maintaining visual contact with the ground, not rocketing through the scud at 130knots and initiating a climb.
First thing that should be done as wx deteriorates is to slow down, maintain visual contact with the ground, and turn around if there is a wall of fog off the nose.
The older age one achieves, the easier it is to just say “no”.
This was CFIT or the pilot had a jammer.
Rotor Heads over the Years has been filled with similar tragedies as this current one.
There was the 109 that cut down the Crane Mast in downtown London, the 139 that came to grief one night in a Cow Pasture during takeoff, there was the 139 that crashed shortly after takeoff from an Island in the Bahamas, and so many others.
We all either knew the pilots involved, knew of those pilots, (and others in so many accidents I have not bothered to list....but LOTS of pilots).
I have lost friends...some who were excellent pilots and some who were lucky (one guy survived a mid-air with a MIG Fighter.....another survived a mid-air in cloud with a friendly fighter).....so this phenomenon of good pilots coming to grief is nothing new or unusual.
It is the why it continues to happen that is the issue.
We all know about it....we are all exposed to it....and despite all the training, experience, education, safety programs.....we still seem to find a way to get our names in the newspaper headlines.
This latest Pilot is no different than the rest of us.....he fully intended to get home at the end of his work day but did not.
Folks....he is not going to be the last one we read about.
Sadly.....one of you riding this post might just be the next one we discuss.
Think about that for a minute......what do you want us to say about your demise?
You can rule me out....I am retired and have no intention of ever being in a situation again, particularly as a passenger...not even in an EMS Helicopter, that it might happen to me.
So....who is next?
There was the 109 that cut down the Crane Mast in downtown London, the 139 that came to grief one night in a Cow Pasture during takeoff, there was the 139 that crashed shortly after takeoff from an Island in the Bahamas, and so many others.
We all either knew the pilots involved, knew of those pilots, (and others in so many accidents I have not bothered to list....but LOTS of pilots).
I have lost friends...some who were excellent pilots and some who were lucky (one guy survived a mid-air with a MIG Fighter.....another survived a mid-air in cloud with a friendly fighter).....so this phenomenon of good pilots coming to grief is nothing new or unusual.
It is the why it continues to happen that is the issue.
We all know about it....we are all exposed to it....and despite all the training, experience, education, safety programs.....we still seem to find a way to get our names in the newspaper headlines.
This latest Pilot is no different than the rest of us.....he fully intended to get home at the end of his work day but did not.
Folks....he is not going to be the last one we read about.
Sadly.....one of you riding this post might just be the next one we discuss.
Think about that for a minute......what do you want us to say about your demise?
You can rule me out....I am retired and have no intention of ever being in a situation again, particularly as a passenger...not even in an EMS Helicopter, that it might happen to me.
So....who is next?
Better late than never.
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Apparently the Heli was flying at 130kts just below cloud before the eventful left turn , and a lot of comment suggests 130kts is a bit fast in those met. conditions .
[..]
Heli could also have continued West on 118 towards Camarillo in maybe marginal VFR ,or climbing above the layer and then IR approach to Camarillo , or had he already decided after passing over Van Nuys to then aim for a set down somewhere near Mamba destination Thousand Lakes to give the pax an on-time arrival ?
We may never know , but hope to learn !
[..]
Heli could also have continued West on 118 towards Camarillo in maybe marginal VFR ,or climbing above the layer and then IR approach to Camarillo , or had he already decided after passing over Van Nuys to then aim for a set down somewhere near Mamba destination Thousand Lakes to give the pax an on-time arrival ?
We may never know , but hope to learn !
"The pilot requested flight following to continue to Camarillo, but Southern California TRACON advised the pilot that they were too low for flight following. Approximately four minutes later, the pilot advised that they were climbing to avoid a cloud layer. When ATC asked what the pilot planned to do, there was no reply."
This and the published ADS-B data strongly suggests to me that the aircraft was inside the cloud when the left turn and descent were initiated.
It also suggests to me that the pilot intended to reach Camarillo airport. The 118 climbs about 500 feet higher than the 101, which should have made it a worse choice with low clouds? I have seen no evidence at all that a landing near the Mamba Sports Academy was planned.