Kauai tour helicopter missing 27th Dec 2019
Tour pilots in Hawaii do not have a monopoly on that do they?
Helicopter pilots are pretty stupid folks over all.....they continue to kill themselves for the same tired old reasons year after year world wide.
Care to offer your explanation why that is?
Pick a country....no matter which one and tell us why those folks do the same thing as all of the rest of the World in this regard.
Helicopter pilots are pretty stupid folks over all.....they continue to kill themselves for the same tired old reasons year after year world wide.
Care to offer your explanation why that is?
Pick a country....no matter which one and tell us why those folks do the same thing as all of the rest of the World in this regard.
Its not enough to shrug the shoulders and say "pilots don't have to fly".
There is pressure in all operations to get the job done, whether real or perceived.
Tour operators are particularly pushy to keep the organ grinding away.
No amount of self-regulation will change that and it is a cop-out to put the responsibility solely on the pilot.
Where tour operators are unique, wherever you go, most residents consider them a nuisance, benefitting the few. Being defensive and indignant won't change that.
Last edited by Bell_ringer; 7th Jan 2020 at 14:27. Reason: misbehaving punctuation
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If tours on Kauai only flew in ideal conditions there would only be maybe 6 flights a year. Tours are frequently cancelled or rerouted for weather. The problem is this hazard relies on a single piece of Swiss cheese - the pilot - and it's well established that pilots make mistakes, no matter how well trained or experienced they are.
But weather decisions aren't really that difficult - the problem is pilots thinking they are better or luckier than they actually are.
Originally Posted by [email protected]
But weather decisions aren't really that difficult - the problem is pilots thinking they are better or luckier than they actually are.
It would really be very frightening to be flying up the narrow canyon and suddenly be entirely in clouds, with downdrafts. Yet apparently that was the situation.
So I'm at a loss for how to prevent such accidents. The risk seems built in given the terrain and the local weather.
Except that in this case things deteriorated very quickly, by all accounts. So the pilot may have been surprised rather than overconfident.
It would really be very frightening to be flying up the narrow canyon and suddenly be entirely in clouds, with downdrafts. Yet apparently that was the situation.
So I'm at a loss for how to prevent such accidents. The risk seems built in given the terrain and the local weather.
It would really be very frightening to be flying up the narrow canyon and suddenly be entirely in clouds, with downdrafts. Yet apparently that was the situation.
So I'm at a loss for how to prevent such accidents. The risk seems built in given the terrain and the local weather.
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
But weather decisions aren't really that difficult - the problem is pilots thinking they are better or luckier than they actually are.
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The Waimea Canyon itself is generally not too bad weather-wise. The accident site was on the transition between the canyon and the Na Pali coast. It's a somewhat hostile area, generally downsloping with numerous valleys, but helicopters fly over it rather than through it. Sticking to the coastline is impractical as there's a large restricted area extending from the coastline, necessitated by a very high power military radar.
I'm a little reluctant to say this as I'm fairly sure you have a lot more experience than I do, but I would strongly disagree. In my experience weather decisions are often difficult, especially in a commercial operation. It's hard to know where the limit is without making mistakes and getting into a bad situation, especially in single pilot ops. If you're over-cautious you're likely to find yourself unemployed in short order, especially as an inexperienced pilot. In the area in question there's essentially no way to gauge the conditions without going up and taking a look and 99.999% of the time there is a way through. I knew the pilot on this flight (although not well) and he'd probably flown this route well in excess of 10,000 times. I can still hear him saying "it's only a f'ing tour" when encouraging people to cancel flights and he was one of the first to cancel of all the operators on Kauai. There's clearly no way of knowing the decision process that led to him being in the situation he was in, but he wasn't the type to take dumb risks which emphasises that if it happened to him it could happen to any of us.
“no way to gauge the conditions without going up and taking a look”
With that mindset, there’s no such thing as a weather decision.
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Pilots are constantly under pressure, from owners, operations and customers, and the statistics show that the outcomes are not always favorable, but often by using skills of judgement and aircraft handling, many marginal flights are completed without incident.
It is VERY difficult to resist those pressures, and as I used to work in Ireland, they were a daily issue. During the Ryder Cup I was flying a Jet-Ranger, and due to poor weather, I could not make the scheduled pick-up near Killarney in the south-west. I was requested to fly low-level,following the main-road, in poor vis and low cloud conditions, towards Killarney from Dublin, to look out for the clients in a red SUV, when I saw them (I seem to recall being told that they would flash their headlamps...), land, pick them up and return to The K-Club.
I declined the offer and after a polite discussion with ops, resigned on the spot as I was not going to risk being put in that same situation again. I have never worked as a commercial pilot since (not by choice by-the-way), and we wonder why rookies and experienced pilots all over the world push-on when maybe the better option is to either set-down, or not depart in the first place...
It is VERY difficult to resist those pressures, and as I used to work in Ireland, they were a daily issue. During the Ryder Cup I was flying a Jet-Ranger, and due to poor weather, I could not make the scheduled pick-up near Killarney in the south-west. I was requested to fly low-level,following the main-road, in poor vis and low cloud conditions, towards Killarney from Dublin, to look out for the clients in a red SUV, when I saw them (I seem to recall being told that they would flash their headlamps...), land, pick them up and return to The K-Club.
I declined the offer and after a polite discussion with ops, resigned on the spot as I was not going to risk being put in that same situation again. I have never worked as a commercial pilot since (not by choice by-the-way), and we wonder why rookies and experienced pilots all over the world push-on when maybe the better option is to either set-down, or not depart in the first place...
Have you been to Kauai? That is like saying "Let's do a Hollywood tour, but stay over the coast".... 90% of the time, the weather on Kauai is just fine, just as B87 stated.
,...also flown a Hollywood tour,...nothin' special to see there.
While I agree a Hollywood tour is nothing special to you or me, (I have flown quite a few of them, also flew tours on Kauai for 7 years in a former life before fire), these sights are something spectacular to those who do not get the same vantage point as us.
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When I said there's no way to gauge the conditions without taking a look, I was again referring to the area between Waimea Canyon and the Na Pali. Unfortunately, that is the case. There's no radar, no meaningful observations, not even a webcam. The satellite image doesn't indicate whether the clouds are 2000' over the rim of the canyon or 200' below it. Even when you're in the Canyon you can't see what's going on beyond the rim, so you might cross the rim in sky clear conditions only to be confronted with cloud obscuring the normal route to the coast. Potentially you may be able to fly around the cloud, no problem, but you've got to go further to see. Now your weather decision has to be made very quickly, with passengers in the back, whilst flying, and potentially with other aircraft coming up behind you. Can it be done? Sure, but I wouldn't say it's always easy.
With that said, of all the tours I could have flown on Kauai, I cancelled probably in the region of 10-20% for weather reasons. I stayed on the ground for entire weeks when the weather was just a little too marginal. I have no desire to take dumb risks, especially for a tour. I was one of the more cautious pilots at one of the more cautious companies, but I'm not going to pretend I didn't make mistakes (although I did try to learn from them) - the weather here is unlike anywhere else I've flown. Some of those weather decisions were easy to make. Others were hard. They don't get easier when you're paid by the flight, not by the day, and you're working in an industry where progression is based on number of hours flown, not number of good decisions taken. I've heard people say "you're paid to make good decisions" but in the tour industry it's literally the opposite.
They don't get easier when you're paid by the flight, not by the day, and you're working in an industry where progression is based on number of hours flown, not number of good decisions taken. I've heard people say "you're paid to make good decisions" but in the tour industry it's literally the opposite.
Except that in this case things deteriorated very quickly, by all accounts. So the pilot may have been surprised rather than overconfident.
It would really be very frightening to be flying up the narrow canyon and suddenly be entirely in clouds, with downdrafts. Yet apparently that was the situation.
So I'm at a loss for how to prevent such accidents. The risk seems built in given the terrain and the local weather.
It would really be very frightening to be flying up the narrow canyon and suddenly be entirely in clouds, with downdrafts. Yet apparently that was the situation.
So I'm at a loss for how to prevent such accidents. The risk seems built in given the terrain and the local weather.
Weather decisions are easy - can you see where you need to get to? No? Then can you get there by going lower or higher to see your destination? No? Can you approach your destination from a different direction? No? Can you wait for a few minutes for the weather to clear? No? Then that is the weather decision made.
When it doubt don’t go, if you encounter bad weather turn back, easy words to say.... but as said by many and sadly proven, peer pressure, Coporate pressure and possibly own financial costs pressures seem to contribute to so many of accidents that end up getting discussed on here.
Not sure how things can improve to mitigate these outside pressures to fly in what might be uncertain conditions, sadly, in my opinion one major factor is money, weather it be the guy with millions demanding his 2 pilots take off in his “all singing all dancing “ VVIP twin whatever it is, or a low hour tour pilot gaining as many hours as possible in an R44 that is getting pressure from the tour company “let’s fit another trip in before the clouds come in”....
Not sure how things can improve to mitigate these outside pressures to fly in what might be uncertain conditions, sadly, in my opinion one major factor is money, weather it be the guy with millions demanding his 2 pilots take off in his “all singing all dancing “ VVIP twin whatever it is, or a low hour tour pilot gaining as many hours as possible in an R44 that is getting pressure from the tour company “let’s fit another trip in before the clouds come in”....
I flew with a guy once who refused to make a precautionary landing in one of the bazillion open fields we passed for fear it would generate negative publicity for the company.