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This ride's a bit low, don't you think?

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This ride's a bit low, don't you think?

Old 13th Nov 2019, 21:57
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Not sure what you mean by "direct operating cost"
You might want to look that one up - kind of a fundamental concept in the commercial business model.
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Old 13th Nov 2019, 22:06
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Every load is different, people are pretty jolly at fairs and similar events, and the hours you put in your log book represent much more challenging flying than droning along on a 20 or 30 minute scenic flight.
What exactly is challenging about it??? Day, VMC flying circuits to a field............doesn't get much easier frankly.

If you mean challenging because you are putting yourself, the fare-paying pax and people on the ground at risk and hope you don't have a malfunction - that's just dumb, not challenging.

You have alluded to large pax - do you calculate your AUM and C of G for each challenging circuit, do a power check before transitioning, consult the RFM to make sure you have enough performance margin to operate safely, give the pax a comprehensive safety brief and show them how to egress the aircraft after an emergency landing? Or are you too busy making money?
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Old 13th Nov 2019, 22:13
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Quite simple really,

What a f!Łking idiot - I would be seriously pissed if that was my son in the pax seat
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Old 13th Nov 2019, 22:20
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 212man View Post


You might want to look that one up - kind of a fundamental concept in the commercial business model.
Argh. Yes, I was not precise enough in my language. I know what it means. But I'm not sure FH1100 does because he was pretty far off the mark, dollar-wise, and it is a meaningless number. Nobody operates solely on the basis of DOC. Indirect costs count, too.
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Old 13th Nov 2019, 22:30
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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An airframe trying to shake itself apart.
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Old 13th Nov 2019, 22:34
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
What exactly is challenging about it??? Day, VMC flying circuits to a field............doesn't get much easier frankly.
Think of it more like ag work, except you are heavy when you return also. The spots are typically tight and require more attention than an easy day going in and out of 80 acre fields or paved runways. Is it super-challenging for a properly trained commercial pilot? No. Is it more challenging than boring holes in the sky with some old ladies in the back? Yes.
You have alluded to large pax - do you calculate your AUM and C of G for each challenging circuit, do a power check before transitioning, consult the RFM to make sure you have enough performance margin to operate safely,
Yes, yes, and yes. These are all pre-calculated. About all the pilot has to do is occasionally remind ground staff to put the heavier folks in the back or prevent a third passenger from boarding.
give the pax a comprehensive safety brief and show them how to egress the aircraft after an emergency landing?
This admittedly could be done better. Let's face it: a thorough briefing with demonstrations would take nearly as long as the flight itself.

Anyhow, I thought some people would appreciate a real-world perspective. If it's going to degenerate into the typical PPRuNe slag-fest about how only certain missions and certain helicopters are worthy of being flown then have at it. NYC's got positions for you, they think only public safety flights are worthy of leaving the ground.
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Old 13th Nov 2019, 23:02
  #47 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by aa777888 View Post
Think of it more like ag work, except you are heavy when you return also. The spots are typically tight and require more attention than an easy day going in and out of 80 acre fields or paved runways. Is it super-challenging for a properly trained commercial pilot? No. Is it more challenging than boring holes in the sky with some old ladies in the back? Yes.
Yes, yes, and yes. These are all pre-calculated. About all the pilot has to do is occasionally remind ground staff to put the heavier folks in the back or prevent a third passenger from boarding.
This admittedly could be done better. Let's face it: a thorough briefing with demonstrations would take nearly as long as the flight itself.

Anyhow, I thought some people would appreciate a real-world perspective. If it's going to degenerate into the typical PPRuNe slag-fest about how only certain missions and certain helicopters are worthy of being flown then have at it. NYC's got positions for you, they think only public safety flights are worthy of leaving the ground.
I appreciate it,...thanks.
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Old 14th Nov 2019, 03:45
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by aa777888 View Post
Think of it more like ag work, except you are heavy when you return also. The spots are typically tight and require more attention than an easy day going in and out of 80 acre fields or paved runways. Is it super-challenging for a properly trained commercial pilot? No. Is it more challenging than boring holes in the sky with some old ladies in the back? Yes.
Yes, yes, and yes. These are all pre-calculated. About all the pilot has to do is occasionally remind ground staff to put the heavier folks in the back or prevent a third passenger from boarding.
This admittedly could be done better. Let's face it: a thorough briefing with demonstrations would take nearly as long as the flight itself.

Anyhow, I thought some people would appreciate a real-world perspective. If it's going to degenerate into the typical PPRuNe slag-fest about how only certain missions and certain helicopters are worthy of being flown then have at it. NYC's got positions for you, they think only public safety flights are worthy of leaving the ground.
No Slagfest, but there seems no control of PAX ... as mentioned before where are the ground crew gently guiding them away from the TR, we all know what can happen with an excited PAX after a quick ride, or transfer. whether it be a fairground ride or a Helicopter ride.. disorientiontation
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Old 14th Nov 2019, 05:52
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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The bits I didn't like about the conduct of the ride:

Flight was too low. Only just level with the flags on top of the fairground, and below the level of one of the many towers he flew past.
Flight was too low.
Flight was STILL too low.
On arrival, pilot lets go the collective and is leaning out his door, while kid is unstrapping and leaving the front seat. And don't try to justify it by saying "the collective lock is on" because we all know that the Robinson collective lock is a lock in name only. Potential for a serious accident, it has happened too many times before.
Pax were out their doors and moving around well before the "handlers" came with the next load.

Just didn't like it. I have run many hundreds of scenic rides, but with far greater safety than these people.
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Old 14th Nov 2019, 07:35
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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Yes, yes, and yes. These are all pre-calculated. About all the pilot has to do is occasionally remind ground staff to put the heavier folks in the back or prevent a third passenger from boarding.
Unless you weigh each pax and carefully position them, you have no idea what your AUM or C of G is.

It isn't a slagfest and pax flying done safely is still fun - but this 'get em in, whizz em round and get em out' isn't safe pax transport no matter how you try to put a positive spin on it.

If you are operating heavy all the time you have higher collective position and increased Nr decay in the event of a power loss - you have very little power margin and I suspect transient exceedances over the MAP limit are a regular (but perhaps ignored) occurrence.
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Old 14th Nov 2019, 08:32
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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212 wrote

You might want to look that one up - kind of a fundamental concept in the commercial business model.
And a concept which is widely misunderstood.
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Old 14th Nov 2019, 09:52
  #52 (permalink)  
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Was holding short once for a while waiting for a guy to backtrack and observed one of these with a student trying to learn hovering above grassy patch of the AD.
I swear they nearly buried the back end into the dirt a couple of times. Must have been inches away.
No thanks, I'll stick to my fixed wing...
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Old 14th Nov 2019, 10:55
  #53 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by JRK View Post
Was holding short once for a while waiting for a guy to backtrack and observed one of these with a student trying to learn hovering above grassy patch of the AD.
I swear they nearly buried the back end into the dirt a couple of times. Must have been inches away.
No thanks, I'll stick to my fixed wing...
If you don't like helicopters, why are you on a helicopter forum?
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Old 14th Nov 2019, 11:02
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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.
Well, to say that he doesn't like helicopter !
.
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Old 14th Nov 2019, 11:26
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RMK View Post
If you don't like helicopters, why are you on a helicopter forum?
Sometimes, even stuck-wing drivers, want to hang around real pilots
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Old 14th Nov 2019, 11:28
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by JRK View Post
Was holding short once for a while waiting for a guy to backtrack and observed one of these with a student trying to learn hovering above grassy patch of the AD.
I swear they nearly buried the back end into the dirt a couple of times. Must have been inches away.
No thanks, I'll stick to my fixed wing...
Since you seem, from your own writing quoted above, to only have ONE wing... watch out for a likely spin!!!
You've got a point though... sticking to a rotary wing is much more of a headache!!!... As well as gravity you also have to fight centrifuge force, hence needing good nails to grab your blade...

Last edited by alicopter; 14th Nov 2019 at 11:41.
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Old 14th Nov 2019, 13:34
  #57 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by HeliHenri View Post
.
Well, to say that he doesn't like helicopter !
.
Yes, it's not a matter of like or dislike. I'm just s**t scared of them...

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Old 14th Nov 2019, 13:48
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by JRK View Post
Yes, it's not a matter of like or dislike. I'm just s**t scared of them...
Well, this is the case for everyone here, that's why alcohol exists.
.
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Old 14th Nov 2019, 13:53
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by B2N2 View Post
I’ve never even set foot in a helo but it “looks” alright to me. Mostly because I don’t know what a helo is capable of at these altitudes. To me it appears he carries sufficient extra speed to give him some more energy to work with.........
Hiya B2N2, like you, I'm FW but have "played" in a Sea King, Lynx, Gazelle and an R22. The Gazelle flew like a dream (the SK and Lx were fine too) but the R22 was doing it's best to kill me I swear for the entire hour I was trying to control it. It went a looooong way to explain why my friend, the R22 Instructor, was the way he was - psychotic!!!!! Having also flown with (as pax)/briefed with loads of helo aircrew, I'd not be going anywhere near that ride! Nor anywhere near where the bits that would fly off it in a crash went! Call me a woosie ..... but!!!

Stick with your namesake - loved my Islander flying .... and my hearing has almost recovered after 12 years!!!! Tho I agree re the dangers of a twin if you had engine failure at low level in a take-off. My plan if, during "immediate actions", it was going pear-shaped, was to do a rapid conversion to a no-engine glide which would probably reduce the death toll.... Thankfully, never, ever had to make that call..... .

Cheers, H 'n' H
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Old 14th Nov 2019, 15:00
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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@Robbiee:

Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Unless you weigh each pax and carefully position them, you have no idea what your AUM or C of G is.
From a precisionist point of view I agree with you. But, alas, again my imprecision of speech catches me off guard with you pedantic types. Truthfully, yeah, we eyeball it, and we trust people to tell us their correct weight. It's not that hard to know you are at least within max. gross weight and CG limits if you put the heavy weights in back and don't have a heavy weight person in the front. If you spend some time with an R44 W&B spreadsheet it's actually quite forgiving. A stock Raven II will hold 851 lbs of people and pilot with half tanks. With an average 180 lb pilot that leaves 223 lbs per seat. If everyone is under 200 you are good to load however you want. Over that two people in the back is pretty much it because of CG, unless the up front pax is a lightweight (under 150). So it's not that hard to stay within limits.

It isn't a slagfest and pax flying done safely is still fun - but this 'get em in, whizz em round and get em out' isn't safe pax transport no matter how you try to put a positive spin on it.
That's your opinion based on your tolerance for risk. There are many people who won't fly in or even be around a Robinson helicopter. There are some non-pilots in this topic that have expressed opinions that they would never fly on any helicopter. Everything is relative, but please don't assume your risk assessment exists on a fixed scale that applies to all people. Ride concessions can be and are done safely all of the time. Other professionals, including regulators and underwriters, agree that this is so.

If you are operating heavy all the time you have higher collective position and increased Nr decay in the event of a power loss - you have very little power margin and I suspect transient exceedances over the MAP limit are a regular (but perhaps ignored) occurrence.
I can't agree with you more. This is why task specific training in these operations is so important. This is why I wrote early about having to bring your "A" game. And I've been so trained, as has everyone else in the op I'm associated with. The potential for MAP exceedances are the single biggest issue, and as a helicopter owner myself I don't want them happening to my ship either. Whether other op's take the same care I couldn't say. But these op's can be done "right", for values of "right", which I'm pretty certain you and I will never agree on, to be honest and fair and all that sort of thing.
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