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Helicopter crash in Norway today

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Helicopter crash in Norway today

Old 2nd Sep 2019, 20:14
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Kids!

The names of the PAX with pictures was just released on NRK.no.
5 great kids at the age of 19 to 22. Going for a joy ride at a festival.
Gone......

The State Attorney is getting all emotional and is loosing his cool and want the company, Heli Trans investigated ASAP.
The pilot is not named but described as a 27 man fairly new to the company.
Sad!

Cpt B
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Old 2nd Sep 2019, 20:29
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Gray posted in part: “The manufacturer does not consider servo transparency a failure of the system, but a limitation of all single hydraulic systems”
Thanks for the AH statement, but I’m missing something. If the single servo system was designed to provide a control force which exceeds the maximum forces that can be generated by the rotor, this discussion, and the similar one for the Gazelle, would be moot, n’est-ce pas?
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Old 2nd Sep 2019, 21:01
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by JohnDixson View Post
Gray posted in part: “The manufacturer does not consider servo transparency a failure of the system, but a limitation of all single hydraulic systems”
Thanks for the AH statement, but I’m missing something. If the single servo system was designed to provide a control force which exceeds the maximum forces that can be generated by the rotor, this discussion, and the similar one for the Gazelle, would be moot, n’est-ce pas?
They say it is the other way around. The limits of the hydraulic system is set to not overload the strenght of the rotor system to protect it from damage if the helo is operated outside the envelope.
Servo transparency

Not saying that this is the safest way, only that is why the hyd-syst is limited in power.
I’d rather see it constructed as You say, but then the rotor system might need to be redesigned to cope with the forces.

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Old 2nd Sep 2019, 21:29
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BluSdUp View Post
The names of the PAX with pictures was just released on NRK.no.
5 great kids at the age of 19 to 22. Going for a joy ride at a festival.
Gone......

The State Attorney is getting all emotional and is loosing his cool and want the company, Heli Trans investigated ASAP.
The pilot is not named but described as a 27 man fairly new to the company.
Sad!

Cpt B
This is an awful lot of young people with their lives ahead of them lost this summer in 2 accidents my sympathies to all involved in both accidents.
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Old 2nd Sep 2019, 23:05
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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The limits of the hydraulic system is set to not overload the strenght of the rotor system to protect it from damage if the helo is operated outside the envelope.
Servo transparency
After their hydraulic flight control system killed numerous people due to this occurrence they would say that wouldn't they!

Perish the thought we under designed our flight control system and and then cause the aircraft to crash killing the occupants because we did not wish to over stress a rotor blade or some sheet metal and rivets.

Why is it all the other helicopter designers seem to see the exact opposite way?
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Old 3rd Sep 2019, 00:09
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks AAKEE and as I think you would concur with SAS’ comments, allow a follow up to his observation: If one designs as I suggested ( BTW-this is the approach at SA just a disclaimer, so to speak ), then, when the pilot operates the controls such that the control loads become excessive ( the aggravating factor being stall or stall flutter ) the pilot is faced with very much higher vibration levels, and if for instance performed in turning flight, what was intended as a level turn maneuver may involve some rate of descent as the rotor lift I’d decreased by the stall, but those excessive control loads are within the design fatigue and static strength design parameters, and the controls don’t break-the pilot remains in control. As I wrote previously, I’m still a bit mystified as to the AH design philosophy. They are most certainly not amateurs and that is the reason for my curiosity.
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Old 3rd Sep 2019, 02:06
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by JohnDixson View Post
Gray posted in part: “The manufacturer does not consider servo transparency a failure of the system, but a limitation of all single hydraulic systems”
Thanks for the AH statement, but I’m missing something. If the single servo system was designed to provide a control force which exceeds the maximum forces that can be generated by the rotor, this discussion, and the similar one for the Gazelle, would be moot, n’est-ce pas?
talk to airbus, not me. it's their quote
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Old 3rd Sep 2019, 08:10
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Some extra information in this article that hasn't been posted in this thread, and it's in english.

https://www.thelocal.se/20190901/swe...licopter-crash
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Old 3rd Sep 2019, 11:37
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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As usual in crashes of this type of helicopter....AS 350....we see immediate discussion of hydraulics issues...belts, pulleys, jack stall and fire post crash that evokes questions about crashworthiness of the fuel system.

We also hear talk of the. weakness of the airframe during high impact with the ground.

The aircraft is popular....and has good performance numbers.

Does the good really outweigh the bad in this machine or is its success profit driven?

Did the certifying authorities allow a problem machine to fly when perhaps they should not. have?

It is not like EC/AB helicopters have not made some engineering mistakes in their past.

Will we see the accident investigation of this tragedy record some similar finding from previous crashes that point to design issues?
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Old 3rd Sep 2019, 17:21
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by JohnDixson View Post
Thanks AAKEE and as I think you would concur with SAS’ comments,
Yep, I guess we are on speaking terms.

I’m not qualified on the type. I think the jack stall problem is quite easy to avoid, theoretically.
If you have respect for it and fly it like AS/EC/AH built it, i think its safe in that perspective.
But I also think that the reason people get in this kind of trouble will continue to happen making it dangerous to those that dont stay inside the box(envelope).
AH can tell us it is safe inside the approved envelope but there will always be people that fly outside it.
(Not saying this accident was due to this).

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Old 3rd Sep 2019, 20:03
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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The British military used the AS 350BB with a single hydraulic system as a basic trainer for 20 years flying tactical and low level profiles at high speed and managed not to experience jackstall/servo transparency in thousands of flying hours.

As I said before you have to be ham-fisted to get it to do that - stunting and bunting at high AUM with limited experience is a pretty good recipe though.
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Old 3rd Sep 2019, 20:44
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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FDR

NRK.no reports that some sort of data recorder has been recovered , but in bad shape.
This is not a proper FDR , so what is it exactly.
Anyone care to enlighten me?

Regards
Cpt B

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Old 3rd Sep 2019, 21:24
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BluSdUp View Post
NRK.no reports that some sort of data recorder has been recovered , but in bad shape.
This is not a proper FDR , so what is it exactly.
Anyone care to enlighten me?

Regards
Cpt B
Google "Appareo Vision 1000 Airbus Helicopters" and you will see what was fitted in the accident helicopter.
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Old 4th Sep 2019, 19:49
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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FinalCheck

Thanks
Handy little thing.
And its Black, ie a black Box. In this case I fear it is burnt to a crisp, but time will show.
According to the Investigation Team they have little to go by as most of the main body was consumed by the fire.

At NRK.no there is some emotional RT , as a Heli Team 212(?) happens to pass by makes a Mayday call which is relayed by WF Dash 8.
He eventually manage to set down to rescue a person outside the wreak , unfortunately this person later passed away.
The SAR Seaking was there quickly as well.
Some quick response by fellow RotorHeads, but to no avail.
So.
If this was a Technical problem: Fix it!
If this was a Operational problem : Fix it!
We owe those dead Kids.
Eh!?

Respectfully
Cpt B
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Old 4th Sep 2019, 20:18
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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BluSdUp

Have a look at this accident report, not much left over of aircraft after a post crash fire but they still got a lot of good data from the Vision 1000 unit: https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/...ts/AAR1403.pdf
Not saying the accident investigators will this time but they might, of course FDR / CVR like in the bigger aircraft would be ideal but cost prohibitive, this a a great solution for the smaller helicopters.
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Old 4th Sep 2019, 20:56
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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FinalChecks
Indeed not much left of that frame either, but the unit looks to have avoided the fire.
Lets hope it can be recovered in this case as well.
A small " Crash " box and it would stand a better chance.
Anyway
Thanks
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Old 8th Sep 2019, 21:21
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DonQuixote23 View Post
Could we perhaps be a little more respectful, hours after the accident?
I agree. Thoughts are with the deceased family.
Horrible. RIP
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Old 11th Sep 2019, 05:11
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Norwegian media are reporting that Airbus Helicopters are mandating inspections of the connection between the engine and gearbox of certain new AS350, AS550 and EC130 models.
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Old 11th Sep 2019, 09:45
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
The British military used the AS 350BB with a single hydraulic system as a basic trainer for 20 years flying tactical and low level profiles at high speed and managed not to experience jackstall/servo transparency in thousands of flying hours.

As I said before you have to be ham-fisted to get it to do that - stunting and bunting at high AUM with limited experience is a pretty good recipe though.
Agreed. I did about 90 hrs on the Squirrel AS350 and it was very reliable. Quickstops and confined areas were comfortably handled by thousands of hamfisted students like me. Loss of hyds in the sim was recoverable and not too uncomfortable either. Glad I never saw it for real. RIP.
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Old 11th Sep 2019, 12:56
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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its ASB 63.00.32

its pertaining to the driveshaft flange bolts, both engine side and MGB side for proper installation.
Its not specific if its this B3e incident, other than it says a recent accident with an ongoing investigation.
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