Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Rotorheads
Reload this Page >

AW139 Crash in Bahamas - 7 Killed

Rotorheads A haven for helicopter professionals to discuss the things that affect them

AW139 Crash in Bahamas - 7 Killed

Old 6th Jul 2019, 15:37
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Australia sometimes
Posts: 90
Originally Posted by SASless View Post
For all of that structural damage....it was not a soft impact.

Question for the 139 drivers.....How are the floats actuated on the 139?

Any Saltwater switches or Float Valve Switches that will trigger the floats automatically....if the system is armed?

Are there indications in the photos that give a clue as to whether the floats inflated or not?
The floats are armed for over-water flights ... they activate via float valve switches situated in the MLG wells.

I see nothing in these photos to indicate any float inflation. The Fwd bags are housed below the cockpit doors & the Aft bags below the baggage bay.

I'm aware that some operations discourage arming floats on the AW139 during cruise .... despite the RFM calling for this .... just saying.
Scattercat is offline  
Old 6th Jul 2019, 15:47
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Wanaka, NZ
Posts: 2,057
The forward float bag protrusions evident in #17 do not seem to be there in the underwater images. Which makes me wonder if they had been removed.
gulliBell is offline  
Old 6th Jul 2019, 15:55
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: USA
Age: 50
Posts: 222
Originally Posted by SASless View Post
For all of that structural damage....it was not a soft impact.

Question for the 139 drivers.....How are the floats actuated on the 139?

Any Saltwater switches or Float Valve Switches that will trigger the floats automatically....if the system is armed?

Are there indications in the photos that give a clue as to whether the floats inflated or not?
Recommended gear up to ditch. Float switch arms collective manual override. Immersion should auto activate floats with float switch on or off.
Sir Korsky is offline  
Old 6th Jul 2019, 15:56
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: "Deplorable but happy as a drunken Monkey!
Age: 71
Posts: 16,330
Why would one operate a helicopter on extended over-water flights (To/From Florida-Bahamas) without floats being. installed and serviceable?
SASless is offline  
Old 6th Jul 2019, 16:04
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: USA
Age: 50
Posts: 222
Originally Posted by SASless View Post
Why would one operate a helicopter on extended over-water flights (To/From Florida-Bahamas) without floats being. installed and serviceable?
and rafts and the Deployable ELT
Sir Korsky is offline  
Old 6th Jul 2019, 16:08
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: florida
Posts: 12
Not required for Part 91. May people down here operate without floats. Personal option.
sea plane is offline  
Old 6th Jul 2019, 16:08
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 11
Originally Posted by Sikpilot View Post
Were both pilots IFR rated? Either pilot ex military?
I know Geoff was rated IFR, he was also an ex RAF Tornado Pilot for what itís worrh.

No idea of their recency though and experience in the type.

Last edited by havick; 6th Jul 2019 at 17:33.
havick is online now  
Old 6th Jul 2019, 16:08
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: "Deplorable but happy as a drunken Monkey!
Age: 71
Posts: 16,330
A kind and knowledgeable gentleman kindly sent this to me about the 139 Float system.


ADA AW139 A6-AWN Ditching off UAE, 29 April 2017: Final Report - Aerossurance
SASless is offline  
Old 6th Jul 2019, 16:18
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Wanaka, NZ
Posts: 2,057
From the RFM. Yep, automatically deployed, or by manual activation.


gulliBell is offline  
Old 6th Jul 2019, 16:21
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: florida
Posts: 12
Check FAA website, Geoff Painter had an ATP which requires instrument ticket. Other pilot, David Jude also had instrument ticket.
But even if you have instrument ticket and are IFR and night current, flying over open water at night is the deepest IMC you will ever fly. Especially tricky is the transition from over land to over water.
Crashes at this critical point in flight happen down here all the time...even with very experienced pilots.
sea plane is offline  
Old 6th Jul 2019, 16:28
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Wanaka, NZ
Posts: 2,057
Originally Posted by Sir Korsky View Post
...Immersion should auto activate floats with float switch on or off.
RFM says FLOATS EMERG must be set to ON for both automatic and manual inflation.

gulliBell is offline  
Old 6th Jul 2019, 16:28
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: daworld
Posts: 608
Originally Posted by gulliBell View Post
The forward float bag protrusions evident in #17 do not seem to be there in the underwater images. Which makes me wonder if they had been removed.
You aren't seeing the floats there in post #17. You're seeing OPTIONAL hard covers for the floats. They are made to tear off when the float inflates. The float bag cover underneath the hard covers is silver and is what you see on most 139's with floats as it is quite rare to see a machine with the hard covers fitted.

The underwater photos are not clear enough to ascertain if the floats are installed or not. The bags are flush (near enough) with the fuselage skin so it is hard to see.

Not surprised to see the tailboom off. Such a large lever hitting the water hard is going to break off. Looks like some serious crushing of the belly area on the right side too.
noooby is offline  
Old 6th Jul 2019, 16:54
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Florida, USA
Posts: 5
Originally Posted by Sikpilot View Post
Were both pilots IFR rated? Either pilot ex military?
IFR rated vs. IFR proficient is a big difference. Not a lot of hard IMC flying in Florida and the Bahamas to keep one sharp for a 2am overwater flight to a private island.
S76wireguy is offline  
Old 6th Jul 2019, 17:37
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Montreal
Posts: 576
Floats or not is academic, it was not a ditching, it was a high impact crash. Weakness in operational standard that governed aircraft equipment, operational oversight (flight following, crew scheduling), and pilot skill and qualification appears to have continued the open season helicopters seem to have on rich guys. You crash in the ocean and nobody knows for hours until you havenít shown up at your destination? No sat tracking, no flight watch? Iíll reserve judgement on the crew suitability beyond just their certificates, we flew safely offshore and EMS with routine black hole departures because of our operational standards and experience requirements. Should have been an easy flight for a 139.
malabo is offline  
Old 6th Jul 2019, 17:48
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: florida
Posts: 12
I fly those deep night, no moon, no star conditions over open ocean water routinely. As I mentioned earlier, even the most skilled and experienced pilots can get into trouble on a night like that. It happens down here all the time. July 2 was the new moon and the conditions the next night would have been a very deep, dark night near Grand Cay.

Pilots need to be current for these exact conditions - no moon, deep night, over-water conditions, not just having a rating.

I agree, this was not a ditch.
sea plane is offline  
Old 6th Jul 2019, 17:51
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: USA
Age: 50
Posts: 222
Originally Posted by gulliBell View Post
RFM says FLOATS EMERG must be set to ON for both automatic and manual inflation.
I stand corrected
Sir Korsky is offline  
Old 6th Jul 2019, 17:56
  #57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Geneva, Switzerland
Age: 50
Posts: 1,432
Just wondering: who will be the lead agency investigating this one? NTSB ?
atakacs is offline  
Old 6th Jul 2019, 17:59
  #58 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 7,486
Should have been an easy flight for a 139.
absolutely
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 6th Jul 2019, 18:42
  #59 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 11
Originally Posted by atakacs View Post
Just wondering: who will be the lead agency investigating this one? NTSB ?
I doubt the NTSB will even look at it being part 91 and in a different country.
havick is online now  
Old 6th Jul 2019, 19:19
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: middle east
Posts: 1
this news reporting is soooo inaccurate!
red helo inverted with un-inflated floats?
white helicopter with wheels underwater?
registration in a video as HB-ZUV
two listed as pilots, painter and jude, both principals in cloud 9 helicopters
time of day/night......
my goodness, too much of a rush to 'GET THAT STORY'
110percent is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.