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Heli Missing South of New Zealand

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Heli Missing South of New Zealand

Old 23rd Apr 2019, 18:27
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
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That sounds like the sensible SAR plan for SPIFR that I remember and it worked very well. But if the operation was VFR and the plan involved flying long distances over water at night then possibly not. NVG is a great aid for getting you to the deck but not for the winching itself. Auto-hover is a great aid during winching but it is normally over-ridden and flown manually. Add a second pilot, IFR, NVG, auto-hover and LOTS of training and you are getting close.

Last edited by Same again; 23rd Apr 2019 at 18:41.
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Old 24th Apr 2019, 00:22
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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It seems it came as a surprise to them when they hit the water. Fortunately it floated for a period which assisted their extraction from the cabin. So that probably discounts a mechanical problem with the helicopter.

Does the BK have immersion switches for automatically popping the floats on water contact?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/a...ectid=12224813
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Old 24th Apr 2019, 01:28
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
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The Pilot is still in hospital but due out soon once his 2 black eyes have opened. The rear crew are fine...ish

On a side note, this is a team effort so monitoring the pilot at the critical approach phase is paramount
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Old 24th Apr 2019, 02:20
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by rottenjohn View Post
Did it have floats?
I should think so, but I don't know so. I don't think the rules allow operation of a M/E helicopter over water more than 100nm from shore, right?
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Old 24th Apr 2019, 02:59
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by gulliBell View Post
It seems it came as a surprise to them when they hit the water. Fortunately it floated for a period which assisted their extraction from the cabin. So that probably discounts a mechanical problem with the helicopter.

Does the BK have immersion switches for automatically popping the floats on water contact?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12224813

You seem to be stirring the pot.

You know the answers to all your questions I suspect....

As usual the industry is quick to stick the knife in.

Glad they are all safe at home to tell the story. They are still building Helicopters!

Last edited by EMS R22; 24th Apr 2019 at 04:21.
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Old 24th Apr 2019, 04:19
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by rottenjohn View Post
Hard to understand what sort of medevac it was to be a “private” operation. If there’d been any urgency surely they would have used the contracted provider who are an IFR operation.
My guess on why it was a private operation is that it was in response to a direct contact to the operator who is actually who you have called the contracted provider. This would likely be the case if the injured party was someone in the know and knew what they wanted and who they wanted to do it and the cost of the job was to be covered by their insurance rather than funded through the nz acc system.
So private as in privately and not public funded but definitely not private as in non commercial. Be it quite a wee stretch south of the mainland this is part of these guys back yard pretty much.
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Old 24th Apr 2019, 04:47
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by gulliBell View Post
Would a BK117 be an odd choice of aircraft employed in the role of single pilot IFR over water winching at night?
Most but not all SAR machines in NZ are BK 117. The thing is one mission will be a medevac from a road accident, the next a climber injured at 8000 feet, then a fisherman injured in the southern ocean. Given the weather and the hectares to people ratio here it is more about providing some timely coverage rather than the perfect solution for every possible call out.
In some areas the coverage is a Squirrel, which I suspect would still be a very welcome site should you need a ride to the nearest hospital.
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Old 24th Apr 2019, 05:27
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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As usual the industry is quick to stick the knife in.
I wasn't being critical of the crew who were no doubt trying to do their very best for the injured fisherman and I am very glad to hear that they are all safe and well. It is easy to pick a plan and actions to bits from the comfort of an armchair. But having experience of both single pilot SAR ops in a BK and multi-crew ops in something larger and better equipped I know which is preferable. You have to have been over the back of a pitching deck on a dark and stormy night to understand - or even making an approch to land over water. At least lessons have been learned and all survived.
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Old 24th Apr 2019, 20:14
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
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Budget the Little Helicopter - a story

Fishing Vessel "Southern Ocean Rape" - "Hi helicopter company we have a minor injury to a crewman, can you come and get them so that we can carry on clearing the ocean of these troublesome fush - we don't want to call the Rescue Coordination Centre because of the paperwork and Worksafe investigation"
Helicopter company - "no problem - but we are all flying BKs in NZ now because of the new ambulance contract so you will have to pay double for that - but don't worry its a BK so we don't need top cover so it will work out about the same cost as two Squirrels"
Fishing vessel - "sweet as"
Pilot - "hey we have a new BK - according to the flight manual fuel consumption figures we should be just OK to get there - but lets sling a few jerrys in the back in case we have to land short"
Crewman - "sweet as"
A few hours later..........
Pilot - bit more of a "headwind than I thought"
Paramedic - "its gone awfully quiet in the back"
Splash
All - "good job aircraft with empty fuel tanks float for a bit"
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Old 24th Apr 2019, 22:44
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Your astute observations lead me to suspect you might be barbados sky in disguise as somebody else.
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Old 25th Apr 2019, 00:39
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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wot? 2 engines and no fuel? really?
see Cultha thread and Category A Takeoff thread
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Old 25th Apr 2019, 01:58
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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I would find that difficult to believe. Twin engine helicopters don't usually do fuel exhaustion simultaneously on both engines. Normally one engine will run out of fuel a few minutes before the other one. In which case, when the first engine went quiet a radio call would go out pronto. Not-withstanding a radio call should have already gone out when it was realized the required fuel to destination was more than the actual fuel on-board. There was no such radio call in this instance, as far as we know.

And if you really screw up your fuel planning and don't have enough fuel to get to your destination, and you're over hostile terrain, I should think the M/E pilot would choose to shut down one engine and leave all the fuel for the other engine to maximize range and get you as close as possible to a suitable landing site.
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Old 25th Apr 2019, 08:14
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by AnFI View Post
wot? 2 engines and no fuel? really?
see Cultha thread and Category A Takeoff thread
Are you going to bring this cr8p to every thread?
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Old 25th Apr 2019, 09:02
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Evil Twin View Post
Are you going to bring this cr8p to every thread?
Anfi has a valid point. If there was a single engined variant of a BK117 then presumably it would likely have better endurance...
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Old 25th Apr 2019, 10:00
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by AnFI View Post
wot? 2 engines and no fuel? really?
see Cultha thread and Category A Takeoff thread
AnFI,

Running out of fuel can happen to singles as well. Probably 1000's of forced landings/crashes over the years due to it, but maybe not as spectacular as In 2003 there was a very similar thing happening in the south Atlantic. That involved a single engine that also almost made it to destination, even flown by an gods-gift-to-aviation superduper-pilot, that since have had another very interesting thread on this forum also involving a single engine in the water. Although I know what brought down the last one, lets not cloud the story with facts.... just to follow your way of discussing.

Why don't you just create your own single vs twin thread or better yet, reply to one of the still current threads that is open on the topic?!

Twin Turbine, Single engine performance & safety

What is a twin-engined helo allowed to do that a single isn't?


Chop,

You'd be delighted to know, that your wish for a single engine version of the BK117 is slowly but surely on the way, but with a different name and made in Switzerland... Was supposed to kill off the AS350/H125, highly unlikely to happen anytime soon unless Jesus himself intervenes and does some magic to the b.e.w. But it will sure as hell have longer legs than the BK without aux-tanks, but then again, the R44 on the way to the Antarctic was claimed to have had an engine FAILURE and not run out of gas (although there was no record of a proper aux-tank fitted for the flight and the distance is quite much more than the 44's range), so then the extra fuel is just extra weight and will make the rests burn a little bit longer unless you ditch...
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Old 25th Apr 2019, 16:51
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Chopjock
Anfi has a valid point. If there was a single engined variant of a BK117 then presumably it would likely have better endurance...
would it have the same MAUM, payload and speed or are you forgetting those bits?

Last edited by Senior Pilot; 25th Apr 2019 at 19:56. Reason: Remove outing reference
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Old 25th Apr 2019, 20:54
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Ah, some editing to preserve anonymity after a complaint I presume
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Old 25th Apr 2019, 23:28
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Gulli.....please to recall the Wessex (two engined version) routinely cruised on one engine with other one shutdown....as a normal procedure.

That completely corrupts AnFi's thesis about un-needed weight and complexity.

When done that way it was a Twin Engined helicopter flown as a single......or perhaps a Single engine helicopter flown as a Twin depending upon how you wish to look at it.
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Old 26th Apr 2019, 03:28
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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The entire EMS industry may not be keen to see you ask that question, rottenjohn. (Granted, there are a few parts of the world where heliborne EMS is a godsend ... got a friend in Washington State whose second career was in that line of work)
Glad they all walked away from this one. (Or swam away?)
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Old 26th Apr 2019, 17:27
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by rottenjohn View Post
Be good to know the actual degree of urgency to get the patient. Haven’t really heard anything about that
Yeah, it would be interesting to know the reason for accepting such risk!
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