Electric tail rotor; an alternative?

[dClbydalpha]

Crab, I think the FW will see commercial benefits sooner, as the efficiency improvement is possibly greater.

The MGB already drives the TRDS and so no real added complexity... in fact layout could be made simpler.

There would still be multiple generators, in fact I envisage load balancing. For example I can't see the need for full RIPS concurrent with long periods of high TR demand

[petit plateau]

Originally Posted by Washeduprotorgypsy

Seeing as this thread is a slapstick offshoot of the Leicester aw169 thread. And using 10-15 % Q as TR power consumption on an aw169 , AEO xmsn rating of 1500 hp. The electric motor off the Cessna 172 will substitute nicely for a electric driven tr on the aw169 , though coming up short by 70 hp if you take 15% Q to be closer to what the mechanically driven version can muster.

So you add the weight of a an Lyco 0-320(+10%) ..~300 lbs on to the tail end, ~350 lbs for the generator, ~600 lbs nose ballast , 400 lbs structural reinforcement. Voila....a perfect locomotive. A little sluggish in pitch when the electronic motor control gets buggy and the need for speed in the necessary autorotation occurs. There is no reason this can't work.

You would expect an electric motor employed in human carriage at altitude to be quite reliable , say close to what the failure rates on an elevator motor might be. Speak to your millwright or elevator buddies as to what a cutting edge gearless motor in the 150 hp department might weigh......~2000 lbs. Making it aviation grade, you build the frame out of aluminium and use titanium bolts.~1700 lbs. I don't want wreck it for Star Wars fans around Christmas time but this I is fantastic ground bound technology.

Tesla Model S motor weight is 70 lbs for 362 hp (see https://chargedevs.com/newswire/elon...uction-motors/). Compare that with your stated 2000 lbs for 150 hp.

[[email protected]]

dClbydalpha -

The MGB already drives the TRDS and so no real added complexity.

that is my point, you have replaced a well functioning mechanical system (TR drive failures are rare) with an electric one which is just as likely to fail, so what is the advantage?

Petit plateau - but how much do the TESLA batteries weigh?

[dClbydalpha]

Originally Posted by [email protected]

dClbydalpha so what is the advantage?

Better control of noise footprint.
Less moving parts.
Less maintenance.
Less unfriendly lubricant.
No need for TRDS alignment.
More freedom in tail rotor design compromise.
More options in MGB layout.

I'm sure there are more.

Why keep asking about battery weight? A claim was made earlier about motor weight ... I think people are answering that and that alone.

[chopjock]

Originally Posted by [email protected]

dClbydalpha - so what is the advantage?

Better control of noise footprint.
Less moving parts.
Less maintenance.
Less unfriendly lubricant.
No need for TRDS alignment.
More freedom in tail rotor design compromise.
More options in MGB layout.

I'm sure there are more.

Able to switch it off in event of un commanded full pedal...

[GrayHorizonsHeli]

Originally Posted by petit plateau

Tesla Model S motor weight is 70 lbs for 362 hp (see https://chargedevs.com/newswire/elon...uction-motors/). Compare that with your stated 2000 lbs for 150 hp.

and how big will your generator need to be to power that beast? seeing pics of the tesla motor, it's the size of a large beer cooler, or to be more accurate the size of many americans beer bellies.
there's the battery with mood killing weight option to charge up and store that huge thirsty electrical appetite, or an equally sized (if not bigger) generator needed to power the motor live. And the bigger the generator, the bigger the power robbed, and the bigger turbine engine required to drive it all...its all relative isnt it? And relatively speaking, it all just keeps getting bigger and heavier.

I'm no electrical wizard by any means, but to get that published HP, knowing they use a 100KWh battery, thats alot of juice to be squeezed from a small bolt on generator.

[dClbydalpha]

Originally Posted by GrayHorizonsHeli

I'm no electrical wizard by any means, but to get that published HP, knowing they use a 100KWh battery, thats alot of juice to be squeezed from a small bolt on generator.

90 kVA is about 40 kg already in use. Full RIPS takes some juice too.

[[email protected]]

Better control of noise footprint.
Less moving parts.
Less maintenance.
Less unfriendly lubricant.
No need for TRDS alignment.
More freedom in tail rotor design compromise.
More options in MGB layout.

but will you match the power and controllability of a conventional TR? No one is going to give up performance just to replace a system that is both reliable and mature technology.


I'm sure there are plenty of problems with maintaining electric motors in the aviation environment and Elon Musk already acknowledges the issues with cooling high performance motors.

As to noise footprint - the TR still has to move the air whether it is driven my a driveshaft or an electric motor and the unequally spaced blades that already exist in modern TR, especially Fenestrons, have already significantly reduce noise footprint,

It seems an odd solution to a problem that hardly exists, especially since the crash that sparked this discussion doesn't look likely to be a TR drive failure anyway.

BTW I wouldn't hold up RIPS as a great success - it is very power hungry and heavy.

[dClbydalpha]

Originally Posted by [email protected]

but will you match the power and controllability of a conventional TR?

... Elon Musk already acknowledges the issues with cooling high performance motors.

... It seems an odd solution to a problem that hardly exists ...

BTW I wouldn't hold up RIPS as a great success - it is very power hungry and heavy.

Yes, why wouldn't it? Simply changing the means of providing the rotation won't reduce performance. If anything it gives the potential for greater control.

Cooling high performance motors is where the major advancements in design and production have occurred. HEVs are major driver for this.

A problem that industry have been asked to provide solutions to. So somebody thinks it exists.

BTW RIPS is an example where industry has moved to make helicopters more viable. It being power hungry is exactly my point.

The technology is here, the engineering is possible. The question is whether the economics will move us in this direction or elsewhere.

[ShyTorque]

BTW RIPS is an example where industry has moved to make helicopters more viable. It being power hungry is exactly my point.

The technology is here, the engineering is possible. The question is whether the economics will move us in this direction or elsewhere.

Indeed. Fitting RIPS adds so much weight to some aircraft that some operators have decided against buying it as an option, because they prefer more usable payload.

[dClbydalpha]

Originally Posted by ShyTorque

Indeed. Fitting RIPS adds so much weight to some aircraft that some operators have decided against buying it as an option, because they prefer more usable payload.

And for others it allows them to operate in conditions not previously possible and therefore increasing usability of their asset. As a Customer, you take your choice.

[[email protected]]

Except that it is not reliable so you can end up committed to an IFR transit in icing conditions and then find yourself without ice protection - have you seen how many pages of malfunctions there are in the 139 QRH just for IPS?

And you lose a valuable vibration absorber which can cause AP/AFCS problems.

Just the sort of issues you want with an electric TR..............

The idea that something is better just because it is electric and new is just fanciful. However, if the advances in electric motor and battery technology were as fast as computer growth and processing power, we might see some viable alternatives but we still struggle with generation and storage for electric power.

How well are electric cars going to do in UK with a National Grid generating system that creaks at the seams on a still winter morning when consumer demand is high and generation output maximums are reached?

[dClbydalpha]

Originally Posted by [email protected]

The idea that something is better just because it is electric and new is just fanciful. However, if the advances in electric motor and battery technology were as fast as computer growth and processing power, we might see some viable alternatives but we still struggle with generation and storage for electric power.

The idea that because something is new it is somehow less capable or even a "fantasy" is also false. Massive advancements have been made in electric technology. Serious research began a decade ago, full scale ground testing of an ETR last year. An ETR first and foremost must meet the requirements of being a tail rotor, hence the careful development. If regulations or operations give an advantage to an ETR equipped aircraft, then it will happen. However I think that we are gradually moving towards all electric aircraft, the VTOL version is unlikely to look like a conventional helicopter, development may therefore diverge.

Out of personal interest what rate of RIPS failures are people experiencing?

[ShyTorque]

Originally Posted by dClbydalpha

And for others it allows them to operate in conditions not previously possible and therefore increasing usability of their asset. As a Customer, you take your choice.

Of course, that's why it was designed in the first place, but it has proved to be at a possibly unexpectedly high cost, both financially and as an aircraft payload penalty.
But surely the question here is: why add complication to replace a well proven, simple mechanical tail rotor system that has proved very reliable for decades? It's worth bearing in mind that many tail rotor failures have been caused by external damage - these failures will still occur on an electrically driven system. In my experience (having been flying helicopters for a living for just coming up to forty years and fixed wing for some years prior to that), the items that have proven most unreliable on all the aircraft I've flown have mainly been electrical or electronic. Same with the road vehicles I've been driving since the 1960s. Water ingress is a perpetual issue as well as mechanical ones. Well designed gearboxes are very reliable indeed because they are so simple. Electric motors and generators are not so reliable and need more maintenance.

As far as "saving the environment" goes, noise reduction has been mentioned more than once. From what I've seen very recently, relatively straightforward innovations in rotor blade design seem to be a very good way forward.

[dClbydalpha]

Originally Posted by ShyTorque

As far as "saving the environment" goes, noise reduction has been mentioned more than once. From what I've seen very recently, relatively straightforward innovations in rotor blade design seem to be a very good way forward.

Nothing is straightforward. The fact that these innovations are even happening shows the will to move forward. ETR is one of a number of initiatives as you say.

Real advantages may be gained in new designs where the geometric constraint of a TRDS doesn't apply. However see my previous response on all electric, that step may never come.

[petit plateau]

Originally Posted by [email protected]

dClbydalpha - that is my point, you have replaced a well functioning mechanical system (TR drive failures are rare) with an electric one which is just as likely to fail, so what is the advantage?

Petit plateau - but how much do the TESLA batteries weigh?

My understanding is that the original poster is proposing an electrical transmission for the tail rotor rather than the existing conventional transmission, i.e. no batteries involved. To do this one would need to have the corresponding increase in generation, which crudely will be approximately equal in weight to the motor (assuming that the existing generator is operating near its design limit and so does not have the requisite spare capacity). So that would be (say) 70lbs for (a 150hp generator + a 150hp motor). Still a long way different than the objection raised of 2000 lbs for 150 hp system.

You can go further and propose to relocate the prime mover to wherever is convenient in the aircraft (i.e. low rather than high, or whatever) and put an electric drive on the main rotor(s) with an electrical transmission. Sort of the helicopter equivalent of a diesel-electric ship main propulsion, for much the same reasons. As a further refinement you then only need to put a few small/light batteries in the system and you can run the prime mover over a much narrower rpm band and still handle transient peak power loads; such a system typically has a better fuel economy. Taking an approach like this might be interesting if folk are having problems designing gearboxes, which I understand they are. Tilt wing transmissions are also complex and heavy and have awkward failure modes.

This is an interesting time to be a designer.

[dClbydalpha]

Originally Posted by petit plateau

This is an interesting time to be a designer.

As in " may you live In interesting times" 😁.

The ETR generation is not exclusive with the rest of the generation system. For a lot of the time the ETR will not be at peak load, when it is, other systems may not. A thorough ELA will show this and it may be that the weight penalty for RIPS can be shared with ETR, just a thought?

In my opinion I wouldn't go anywhere near electric main rotor for a conventional setup.

[[email protected]]

Real advantages may be gained in new designs where the geometric constraint of a TRDS doesn't apply. However see my previous response on all electric, that step may never come.

Those already exist in the form of NOTAR, Twin rotor (Chinook) and contra-rotating MRs so it's not exactly ground breaking.

If it's not a good idea for the MR, why is it such a great one for thew TR?

Everyone would like to see a helicopter replacement that looks like a scaled up drone or quadcopter but to give it a useful payload is a long way from fruition.

[jellycopter]

Crab, my initial post at #12 explains why it may be good idea.

A fenestron type ETR could be stopped in forward flight and yaw control achieved by a simple rudder. Massive increase in component life and reliability.
​​​​​​
in the event of engine failure, any yaw in the descent could be controlled by rudder. The ETR would automatically spool up quickly under battery power for the vinegar strokes at the end.

Under normal ops, a conventional variable pitch mechanism would be used.

If made as a 'smart' system, the AW169-type failure could be mitigated by computer controlled reversal of direction of rotation with variable RPM to effect emergency yaw control. All of this is technically feasible today. If the pedals were driven to full deflection and held there, an ETR could be computer controlled to lock the heading. Heading could be managed by autopilot-type hdg bug on the HSI for example. Any excess rate of rotation could trigger a heading lock function.

Food for thought, or just fantasy?

JJ

[dClbydalpha]

Originally Posted by [email protected]

Those already exist in the form of NOTAR, Twin rotor (Chinook) and contra-rotating MRs so it's not exactly ground breaking.

If it's not a good idea for the MR, why is it such a great one for thew TR?

Everyone would like to see a helicopter replacement that looks like a scaled up drone or quadcopter but to give it a useful payload is a long way from fruition.

Who said it was groundbreaking? NOTAR has its issues and advantages. As does Tandem, and coaxial, and contra... It doesn't have to be groundbreaking to be useful. This thread started because one poster was accused of trolling for suggesting an ETR... numerous others have weighed in that it isn't practical. In fact we now seem to have reached a point where it is, it's just a case of whether it offers sufficient advantage to move from the status quo. Are you unable to see the advantages of an ETR or is it having assessed it judge it isn't worth it?

I thought the reason to avoid the MR was covered in my earlier posts. That would be close enough to the all-electric aircraft, which I don't believe will look like a helicopter, so no point going down that branch - even if a continuously variable rotor has its attractions.

Quad, Quad tilt ... who knows what will emerge over the next 10 years?