When is an ATZ and ATZ?

[firebird_uk]

From the CAA

An ATZ at a civil aerodrome does not exist outside the notified hours of operation of the A/G, AFISO or ATC unit.

So if an airfield has published hours of 8am to 8pm but NOTAMs a closure between 1pm and 2pm can you land at a private site within the area of the ATZ without ATC permission (because there is no ATZ/ATC active)?

In my experience heli pilots have one opinion airport operations / ATC seem to have another. Opinions?

Regards, FB

[vintage ATCO]

My own view is that if it is intended that the ATZ should remain extant during the closure period then it should be specifically mentioned in the NOTAM or your quote applies.

[nigelh]

If nobody is manning a radio you just blind call and go on in don’t you ??!!

[chopjock]

So if an airfield has published hours of 8am to 8pm but NOTAMs a closure between 1pm and 2pm can you land at a private site within the area of the ATZ without ATC permission (because there is no ATZ/ATC active)?

Remember you only require ATC permission if it is a Control Zone. A normal ATZ that is air / ground or "radio Information" has no authority and only supplies or asks for information ...

[rr84c]

That’s incorrect. You need permission to enter an active ATZ

[chopjock]

That’s incorrect. You need permission to enter an active ATZ

No you don't! You are required to make a radio call with your position and height prior to entering an active ATZ and just prior to leaving... You only need permission / clearance etc with a control zone!

[tu154]

This would be so much easier if people would link a reference to their bold statement of fact. Or am I being naive?

[chopjock]

This would be so much easier if people would link a reference to their bold statement of fact. Or am I being naive?

​​​​​​https://www.bfgc.co.uk/VFR_Guide.pdf

Scroll down to page 8:

​​​​​​Rule 45 states that an aircraft shall not fly, take-off or land within the ATZ of an aerodrome unless the commander of that aircraft has obtained the permission of the air traffic control unit at the aerodrome or – where there is no air traffic control unit – has obtained from the aerodrome flight information unit at the aerodrome, information to enable the flight within the zone to be conducted with safety or – where there is no air traffic control unit nor aerodrome flight information service unit – has obtained information from the air/ground radio station at that aerodrome to enable the flight to be conducted with safety.

[HeliComparator]

Originally Posted by vintage ATCO

My own view is that if it is intended that the ATZ should remain extant during the closure period then it should be specifically mentioned in the NOTAM or your quote applies.

No that wouldn't be allowed or be reasonable (well, actually you can notam anything you like, doesn't mean it holds water!). You cannot have a chunk of airspace and then say "sorry, we are going for lunch, nobody may use that airspace in the mean time". In other words no point in having an ATZ if no-one is allowed to fly in it! But no doubt some owners of train sets might be upset at the thought!

[Sloppy Link]

Originally Posted by HeliComparator

No that wouldn't be allowed or be reasonable (well, actually you can notam anything you like, doesn't mean it holds water!). You cannot have a chunk of airspace and then say "sorry, we are going for lunch, nobody may use that airspace in the mean time". In other words no point in having an ATZ if no-one is allowed to fly in it! But no doubt some owners of train sets might be upset at the thought!

Pretty certain the owners of Miltary train sets take an extremely dim view with all their ATZs being declared active 24/7. Don't confuse with MATZ, which is during hours of operation.

[[email protected]]

Common sense, self-preservation and good manners would suggest establishing comms before entering any ATZ - even if you absolutely know it is clear. If you can't get comms and you have to go in/through, then good use of 'blind calls' is prudent.

[ShyTorque]

I wonder how some folk think non-radio aircraft ever managed to arrive at an airfield within an ATZ?

[firebird_uk]

OK. So the general consensus seems to be that even with an ATZ (which there isn't) making blind calls is an acceptable method of announcing your intentions.

If it transpires that the piece of private land lies within the boundary of the closed airfield, where do we now stand?

[ShyTorque]

Cranfield have published a NOTAM (for 30 Jun 2018 1200-1700 UTC), stating that the airfield is closed and there is no ATS, yet the ATZ "remains active".

Is there an ATZ per se in these circumstances?

[firebird_uk]

Having spoken to a couple of ATC bods they seem to believe that if the airfield publishes hours saying 8 till 8 then that is when the ATZ exists, even if they NOTAM a closure. However, CAA docs refer to notified hours and I would have said that if you're notifying the airfield closed by NOTAM then the ATZ goes with it.

As others have said, the ATZ in no invisible force field and self announcing is a valid when entering if no ATC is available.

[Brutal]

Exactly as stated in the beginning............"An ATZ at a civil aerodrome does not exist outside the notified hours of operation of the A/G, AFISO or ATC unit".

So for instance, Notified hours in Pooleys, 8-8, Then that's the notified hours...outside of this, there is NO ATZ. Unless NOTIFIED otherwise...eg, Notams. Then it is active during those hours! For example, Aerodrome x in say Pooleys is 08:00-20:00. NOTAMs state open until 22:00 due to night flying training. Then consider yourself notified. The same goes for open hours 08:00-20:00 but NOTAMS state closed from 12:00-14:00. Then there is NO ATZ, UNLESS, in the example above where it states in a Notam the ATZ remains active, even without ATC staff available to give any type of service.
The caveat to all of this is airmanship! Even though an airfield is closed , you may have missed the Notam extending it's hours, forgot to check etc etc but you know aerodrome x closes by 20:00 and it's 21:30 and you are about to transit through, give them a call on the appropriate frequency. Better a couple of blind transmissions than a near miss and being reported to the CAA for flight violations!

Just my 2cents....
B.

[639]

What if the airfield in question has it's Licence suspended by the CAA?, should it's ATZ be considered suspended also even though it will still be represented on appropriate charts?

[PPRuNeUser469990]

UK ATZ rules discussed in this thread

question about Rule 5 ("500 foot rule")

[639]

Originally Posted by hargreaves99

UK ATZ rules discussed in this thread

question about Rule 5 ("500 foot rule")

As it is in this thread.
Neither addresses my question above and I think its considered bad form to ask the same thing in multiple threads.
Do you perhaps know the answer?

[212man]

Originally Posted by 639

What if the airfield in question has it's Licence suspended by the CAA?, should it's ATZ be considered suspended also even though it will still be represented on appropriate charts?

Whatever the legal status, I think you should treat the ATZ as being active. Swansea airport is a case in point - license suspended but flying schools still active.