Private Helicopter
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 339
Likes: 1
From: Canada
Well, thank you, Gray Horizons, but not really relevant, when we are dealing with somebody whose only purpose in coming onto this site is to try to get a pilot shut down.
Stop feeding this troll information, which then might be used in a submission to council somewhere.
Stop feeding this troll information, which then might be used in a submission to council somewhere.
the added bonus is he could take the ignorant replies from here with him as proof that the "professional" pilots lack any professionalism. and who do you think wins that fight?
Probably be better to just shut him down with facts, than troll him with ignorant comments.
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,529
Likes: 2
From: yorkshire uk
Gray .... and what point are you trying to make ? I am completely with ascend Charlie and do wonder why this twit comes onto this site trying to further his case trying to stop someone from legally ( looks like it is legal from the evidence so far ) flying from their house . It pains me to be supportive of an R22 but I am and as a pilot ( supposedly) so should you !!
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 339
Likes: 1
From: Canada
Gray .... and what point are you trying to make ? I am completely with ascend Charlie and do wonder why this twit comes onto this site trying to further his case trying to stop someone from legally ( looks like it is legal from the evidence so far ) flying from their house . It pains me to be supportive of an R22 but I am and as a pilot ( supposedly) so should you !!
Avoid imitations
Joined: Nov 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 1,083
From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Lockwood 16,
It takes a very large amount of power for a helicopter to ascend vertically to 1,000 feet, compared to a more normal angled climb, as your neighbour appears to sensibly fly. Also, if the engine stopped during such a manoeuvre, it puts the aircraft in an aerodynamic situation that may be unrecoverable. Someone already mentioned the "dead man's curve". This is a combination of speeds and height (a curve on a graph, determined by extensive testing by the manufacturer's test pilots) that would be highly likely to result in a crash if the engine did lose power. A vertical climb (of more than an ascent of just a few feet, not much more than the rotor diameter) puts a single engined helicopter right in that situation, so it's a manoeuvre that really must be avoided. If an accident resulted from a pilot flying in this way, the insurers would be greatly "displeased" to say the least.
As far as a vertical landing from a 1,000 foot hover is concerned, the above is of a similar concern, but for slightly different aerodynamic reasons. If you search for and read up about the phenomenon known as "Vortex ring state", with reference to helicopters, you will hopefully begin to understand why this isn't done - again it is likely to result in a major accident! Also, descending vertically means that the pilot can't actually see where he's going!
Here's one reference: https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Vortex_Ring
It takes a very large amount of power for a helicopter to ascend vertically to 1,000 feet, compared to a more normal angled climb, as your neighbour appears to sensibly fly. Also, if the engine stopped during such a manoeuvre, it puts the aircraft in an aerodynamic situation that may be unrecoverable. Someone already mentioned the "dead man's curve". This is a combination of speeds and height (a curve on a graph, determined by extensive testing by the manufacturer's test pilots) that would be highly likely to result in a crash if the engine did lose power. A vertical climb (of more than an ascent of just a few feet, not much more than the rotor diameter) puts a single engined helicopter right in that situation, so it's a manoeuvre that really must be avoided. If an accident resulted from a pilot flying in this way, the insurers would be greatly "displeased" to say the least.
As far as a vertical landing from a 1,000 foot hover is concerned, the above is of a similar concern, but for slightly different aerodynamic reasons. If you search for and read up about the phenomenon known as "Vortex ring state", with reference to helicopters, you will hopefully begin to understand why this isn't done - again it is likely to result in a major accident! Also, descending vertically means that the pilot can't actually see where he's going!
Here's one reference: https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Vortex_Ring
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 122
Likes: 0
From: earth
Lockwood 16,
It takes a very large amount of power for a helicopter to ascend vertically to 1,000 feet, compared to a more normal angled climb, as your neighbour appears to sensibly fly. Also, if the engine stopped during such a manoeuvre, it puts the aircraft in an aerodynamic situation that may be unrecoverable. Someone already mentioned the "dead man's curve". This is a combination of speeds and height (a curve on a graph, determined by extensive testing by the manufacturer's test pilots) that would be highly likely to result in a crash if the engine did lose power. A vertical climb (of more than an ascent of just a few feet, not much more than the rotor diameter) puts a single engined helicopter right in that situation, so it's a manoeuvre that really must be avoided. If an accident resulted from a pilot flying in this way, the insurers would be greatly "displeased" to say the least.
As far as a vertical landing from a 1,000 foot hover is concerned, the above is of a similar concern, but for slightly different aerodynamic reasons. If you search for and read up about the phenomenon known as "Vortex ring state", with reference to helicopters, you will hopefully begin to understand why this isn't done - again it is likely to result in a major accident! Also, descending vertically means that the pilot can't actually see where he's going!
Here's one reference: https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Vortex_Ring
It takes a very large amount of power for a helicopter to ascend vertically to 1,000 feet, compared to a more normal angled climb, as your neighbour appears to sensibly fly. Also, if the engine stopped during such a manoeuvre, it puts the aircraft in an aerodynamic situation that may be unrecoverable. Someone already mentioned the "dead man's curve". This is a combination of speeds and height (a curve on a graph, determined by extensive testing by the manufacturer's test pilots) that would be highly likely to result in a crash if the engine did lose power. A vertical climb (of more than an ascent of just a few feet, not much more than the rotor diameter) puts a single engined helicopter right in that situation, so it's a manoeuvre that really must be avoided. If an accident resulted from a pilot flying in this way, the insurers would be greatly "displeased" to say the least.
As far as a vertical landing from a 1,000 foot hover is concerned, the above is of a similar concern, but for slightly different aerodynamic reasons. If you search for and read up about the phenomenon known as "Vortex ring state", with reference to helicopters, you will hopefully begin to understand why this isn't done - again it is likely to result in a major accident! Also, descending vertically means that the pilot can't actually see where he's going!
Here's one reference: https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Vortex_Ring
As for landing, he can easily come in quietly, its a simple technique, someone just needs to show him how,...if he cares to learn?
Avoid imitations
Joined: Nov 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 1,083
From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Actually, in the R22 once you pass 400' you are out of your "dead man's curve" and an auto from a hover is doable...especially if your landing area is right below you,...and yes I have done them,...well, from 500' anyway.
As for landing, he can easily come in quietly, its a simple technique, someone just needs to show him how,...if he cares to learn?
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 122
Likes: 0
From: earth
But as for doing this on every departure from and approach to a garden, (especially as your practice EOLs would have had you poised and ready to react ... and from a climb)?
I don't think the aircraft noise made was the main reason for the OP's concern. It seems to me the concern was more about "rules" being broken.
I don't think the aircraft noise made was the main reason for the OP's concern. It seems to me the concern was more about "rules" being broken.
Joined: Sep 2002
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 4,721
Likes: 636
From: Great South East, tired and retired
Hmm, never thought about doing an auto from a climb? There's something to bring up next time I go to the safety course.
For that reason, most single-engine helicopters have a rate of climb limitation of 2000'/min. Not something that worries an R22, but 407 and the like can easily do it when light.
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,529
Likes: 2
From: yorkshire uk
In fact the 407 has a vne effectively on rate of climb just for that reason !
as for offering neighbours a ride I think that’s a very good policy . Whether they thank you when they see what the ride is in is a different matter !!!!!!
as for offering neighbours a ride I think that’s a very good policy . Whether they thank you when they see what the ride is in is a different matter !!!!!!
Avoid imitations
Joined: Nov 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 1,083
From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Joined: Nov 2000
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
From: Annecy
Happened to me on my licence test. We did the (expected) engine failure, so on the climb out after recovery I was very relaxed, with a 'glad that's over' attitude. Instructor rolled the throttle off on the climb-out and said 'engine failure' again. Certainly got my attention !
