Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Rotorheads
Reload this Page >

EC 130 down at the Grand Canyon

Rotorheads A haven for helicopter professionals to discuss the things that affect them

EC 130 down at the Grand Canyon

Reply

Old 12th Feb 2018, 17:01
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 6,881
So, as rotorspeed says - it is a surprise that they operate so late that any rescue can't be completed in daylight.
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12th Feb 2018, 18:08
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: The Alps
Posts: 1,828
Originally Posted by Gordy View Post
There is a rescue helicopter in the Grand Canyon, I believe staffed by Papillon. They do not however operate at night as per DOI rules.
Yep its a MD902 Explorer in black and yellow stripes though wonder if the 66th RQS out of Nellis may have provided assistance with a Pave Hawk?

cheers
chopper2004 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12th Feb 2018, 18:46
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: PLanet Earth
Posts: 745
Originally Posted by Heathrow Harry View Post
He added: "Yesterday, we were hampered by severe weather conditions [and] we had gusts up to 50mph [80kmph]." He said the terrain around the crash site was also "extremely rugged".
Hmmm, 50 mph winds in such a rugged Mountain terrain at that elevation with a heavily loaded helicopter? (assuming the winds didn't just start immediately after the crash).
Are there any restrictions for wind speeds for scenic flights over the canyon?
henra is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12th Feb 2018, 18:57
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: At home
Posts: 367
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
So, as rotorspeed says - it is a surprise that they operate so late that any rescue can't be completed in daylight.
From the pictures in the article, it seems a company 130 landed with some sort of medical aid, and it did not look as it was dark......
Nubian is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12th Feb 2018, 19:40
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Anglia
Posts: 1,834
The police chief said the 1st responders took 20 mins to get there - so they didn't walk, and could not use wheels...
Rigga is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12th Feb 2018, 21:08
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 6,881
Henra has a good point - if the conditions were so poor that the rescue could not be made by the company helicopter, why were they flying? There is something not quite straight with everyone's story.

The 10 o'clock news showed another helicopter landing people to give assistance so where was the brownout dust conditions and the 50 mph wind?
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12th Feb 2018, 21:41
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Nigeria
Age: 51
Posts: 4,222
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Henra has a good point - if the conditions were so poor that the rescue could not be made by the company helicopter, why were they flying? There is something not quite straight with everyone's story.

The 10 o'clock news showed another helicopter landing people to give assistance so where was the brownout dust conditions and the 50 mph wind?
Surely you don't get brown out with 50 mph winds?
212man is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12th Feb 2018, 23:51
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: canada
Posts: 177
Flew the canyon 2 years ago in may with a different operator... is very inhospitable when things go south... RIP to the deceased and speedy recovery to the survivors...
twinstar_ca is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 13th Feb 2018, 00:21
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Interloper
Posts: 101
AvSafety network lists this call sign.
This pic is an old archive photo off google , pilot unknown.

TylerMonkey is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 13th Feb 2018, 00:28
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Earth
Age: 48
Posts: 306
Originally Posted by [email protected];10051040[COLOR="Red"
]Henra has a good point - if the conditions were so poor that the rescue could not be made by the company helicopter, why were they flying? [/COLOR] There is something not quite straight with everyone's story.

The 10 o'clock news showed another helicopter landing people to give assistance so where was the brownout dust conditions and the 50 mph wind?
They were flying because in Tourism flying they fly everyday unless it is unflyable. The visitors are only there once normally so you have to take their money while you can. That is the commercial reality. Sad but true.
Heliringer is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 13th Feb 2018, 00:29
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: BC Canada
Posts: 411
We were in LV till that morning. We had five days of brilliant sunshine, light winds if any and temps from 21 to 25 deg C. Of course winds in desert 80 miles away might be very different.

We have done the "Night" tour of the strip by helicopter and it was very, very professional. Aircraft appeared to be in excellent condition.

Judging by the video just shown on TV here they were lucky anyone survived. Serious blaze from the machine.
ChrisVJ is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 13th Feb 2018, 03:57
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: England
Posts: 277
NTSB press conference announced:
Media Advisory: NTSB Briefing on Grand Canyon Helicopter Crash
2/12/2018
​WASHINGTON (Feb. 12, 2018) — The NTSB will today hold an on-camera briefing followed by a telephone conference call on the Feb. 10, 2018, crash of a tour helicopter at the Grand Canyon.

WHEN:
1 p.m. Pacific time (on-camera briefing)
1:30 p.m. Pacific time (telephone conference)

WHERE:
City Hall, Boulder City, Nevada
401 California Avenue
Boulder City, Nevada 89005

WHO:
Stephen Stein, Investigator-in-Charge

DETAILS:
Teleconference number:
Toll free, USA: 888-500-6975
International: 719-325-2330
Conference ID: 5950992
ExGrunt is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 13th Feb 2018, 05:32
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Connecticut, USA
Age: 59
Posts: 198
Apparently, different rules because the flight was on tribal lands:
Grand Canyon helicopter crashed on tribal land with fewer rules - Chicago Tribune
jugofpropwash is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 13th Feb 2018, 08:48
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 6,881
Aviation attorney Gary C. Robb said potential factors were winds of 10 mph with gusts of 20 mph, pilot error, mechanical failure or pressure within the company to meet the demand for tours.
Has someone wheeled out another 'aviation expert' to make incorrect statements or is he referring to weather conditions at Vegas rather than in the canyon?

Is this a form of positive discrimination where 'special rules' or alleviation from current regulations are allowed simply because you are dealing with a native Indian reservation? If there is a safety case for limiting flying (curfew) in the rest of the canyon then it should apply to the reservation area as well.
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 13th Feb 2018, 11:51
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Brantisvogan
Posts: 320
Aviation attorney Gary C. Robb...

Robb said the EC-130 helicopter flown Saturday generally lacks a system to keep it from exploding, denying passengers a few extra minutes to try to escape.
Why do they keep referring to this muppet in accidents?
Let's whip everyone up in a litigious frenzy shall we?

If the US is like other countries, national parks often have restrictions as they are protected areas so limitations for noise, for example, apply.
If it's private land and you're happy to swap some disturbance for money then why not?
Bell_ringer is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 13th Feb 2018, 12:11
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 6,881
If it's private land and you're happy to swap some disturbance for money then why not?
That's fine, but there is the responsibility for the safety of the tourists who would, anywhere else in the Canyon, have regulated flights. Just because the reservation wants to make money, doesn't mean they can be exempt from sensible safety rules.

I suspect now that many tourists will stick to the more regulated areas for their tours.
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 13th Feb 2018, 12:21
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Brantisvogan
Posts: 320
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
That's fine, but there is the responsibility for the safety of the tourists who would, anywhere else in the Canyon, have regulated flights. Just because the reservation wants to make money, doesn't mean they can be exempt from sensible safety rules.

I suspect now that many tourists will stick to the more regulated areas for their tours.
Unless I am misunderstanding, in this instance, regulated means they restrict the number of flights and type of operations. It isn't necessarily an indication of more or less safe, just that the National park is more fussy to prevent the area being adversely affected by aircraft traffic.
I take it they probably license out the rights to fly in the area so this also has a bearing on cost to operators?
Bell_ringer is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 13th Feb 2018, 13:52
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 6,881
As i understand it - flights elsewhere in the Canyon are regulated with strict curfew which would ensure safe return or rescue before dark. From what the media are saying, that doesn't apply to the Reservation area along with limits on landing in the Canyon.
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 13th Feb 2018, 16:26
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Salt Lake City, UT or on a fire somewhere
Posts: 1,620
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
I suspect now that many tourists will stick to the more regulated areas for their tours.
I suspect most will not know the difference or even care.

Many moons ago when I flew tours in Hawaii, I met tourists who just wanted the cheapest flight they could get, and did not care about safety.
Gordy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 13th Feb 2018, 18:23
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 6,881
I'm sure that is the case - right up to the point where they are involved in an accidentThen the lawyers start circling.......
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Reply With Quote

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service