OH You New York Girls....Can't You Dance The Polka!
Very good assessment SASless - I don't think even a fully operational SAR crew could have been quick enough to scream a warning to the handling pilot to stop him taxiing off the taxiway/runway.
But someone in the crew might have questioned his route to the parking spot and reminded him he was close to the edge before he pushed the yaw pedal.
Are you trying to suggest this wasn't a f**k-up by the whole crew and just blame the pilot?
Are you trying to suggest this wasn't a f**k-up by the whole crew and just blame the pilot?
USN Justice
Judging by yesterday's article in the WSJ:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-nav...ons-1516159389,
and reading the micro critiques posted here, lord knows where this might be headed. I mean, maybe this crew needs Clarence Darrow Jr or Johnnie Cochran?
https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-nav...ons-1516159389,
and reading the micro critiques posted here, lord knows where this might be headed. I mean, maybe this crew needs Clarence Darrow Jr or Johnnie Cochran?
I've watched the video upteen times and it appears to show a slow left turn which would have kept the tail wheel on the runway before a large input of right boot whisks it off. Even if the crewman ('f*ckwit') sitting in the left hand doorway had appreciated the situation he wouldn't have had time to stop it with a warning shout once the right turn started. We of course have no idea what was actually going on inside the aircraft, have we?
At the distance the aircraft was from the video camera it is hard to tell just exactly how close to the edge the aircraft actually was and even if the crewman had already warned the handling pilot there's no knowing if he was ignored or even heard over, perhaps, ATC chatter. In short I think it's easy to jump to conclusions but not advisable without knowing all the facts.
At the distance the aircraft was from the video camera it is hard to tell just exactly how close to the edge the aircraft actually was and even if the crewman had already warned the handling pilot there's no knowing if he was ignored or even heard over, perhaps, ATC chatter. In short I think it's easy to jump to conclusions but not advisable without knowing all the facts.
I think you are just making up excuses for the frankly inexcusable - they just had to taxy the helo from the landing point to the parking spot and they are supposed to be a well-trained military crew.
Crm
There was an army Blackhawk incident, the blades hit a hangar.
The crewmen on that side during the interview response to the question Why did you not say something if you seen that the blades were going to hit the hangar?
"He never listened to me before. Didn't think he would start then."
The crewmen on that side during the interview response to the question Why did you not say something if you seen that the blades were going to hit the hangar?
"He never listened to me before. Didn't think he would start then."
Not making excuses for them - I'm sure they can do that for themselves. Of course it was a mess, but I think it would be reasonable to hear what actually went on inside that aircraft before leaping to conclusions. That might have some bearing on whether it was 'inexcusable' or not - IMHO.
Last edited by FD2; 17th Jan 2018 at 19:54. Reason: speling
Not making excuses for them - I'm sure they can do that for themselves. Of course it was a mess, but I think it would be reasonable to hear what actually went on inside that aircraft before leaping to conclusions. That might have some bearing on whether it was 'inexcusable' or not - IMHO.
Not even the busiest ATC RT should divert the HPs attention from driving the aircraft safely so, unless one of the crew casually mentioned that he had been sleeping with the HP's wife/partner/significant other, just as he was about to manoeuvre into the parking slot, it is difficult to imagine why professional aircrew should have dropped their guard so significantly.
It could have been much worse if the TR had struck as well.
Never point fingers, may be you next.
I am very well aware that it could happen to me, hence my earlier comments about using it as a wake-up call to self - the flight isn't over until you are back in the crewroom.
How do you know what their 'arousal level' was? I can see two people in the back on dispatcher harnesses who are sitting in their respective doorways. You still haven't given a clue as to how you actually know what else was going on in the aircraft, apart from supposing an 'outbreak of dullness' from watching a distant video clip. You obviously have more intuition than me to see what was happening in all the crew positions (four is it?), on the intercom, on the radio and their state of alertness (or arousal). Maybe I need a new P.C., which can see these things for me too!
All I think I can see is that a sudden yaw input, probably without any warning to the crew, put the tail over the edge, probably too quickly for the 'f*ckwit' in the left doorway to say anything to stop it.
Maybe a proper board of enquiry will determine the facts and dish out the appropriate punishment(s) rather than someone supposing an outbreak of 'dullness' being the cause.
All I think I can see is that a sudden yaw input, probably without any warning to the crew, put the tail over the edge, probably too quickly for the 'f*ckwit' in the left doorway to say anything to stop it.
Maybe a proper board of enquiry will determine the facts and dish out the appropriate punishment(s) rather than someone supposing an outbreak of 'dullness' being the cause.
Hardly a good comparison. This was an offshore machine with no rear crew.
How do you know what their 'arousal level' was? I can see two people in the back on dispatcher harnesses who are sitting in their respective doorways
The second clue is the lazy left turn, which is what puts the aircraft closer to the edge before the coup de grace of the hard right turn that does the damage.
Are you saying a crew with a high level of arousal wouldn't have appreciated the proximity of the tailwheel to the edge before the right turn or that there was an obvious right turn coming in order to get to the parking spot?
No, I don't have super-intution or a mega PC, but after 35 years in multi-crew military helicopters, I have a pretty good idea how things are supposed to go - and that ain't it.
I think you should just calm down and let those in authority in this case decide on the real facts as opposed to assuming all the things you have - even though you're no doubt an expert after so many years flying experience - which I'm not questioning. Would the slow left turn have taken them over the edge if continued without the sharp right turn?
Maybe the leg danglers in the back might have assumed that the pilots were competent to carry out a simple ground taxiing manoeuvre. Was it a SAR aircraft with a fully SAR trained crew? I have/had over 35 years experience in both large military multi crew and large civilian aircraft but I would still think it right that the crew be judged by the appropriate authorities rather than being declared guilty on the evidence of a video clip on a website.
Maybe the leg danglers in the back might have assumed that the pilots were competent to carry out a simple ground taxiing manoeuvre. Was it a SAR aircraft with a fully SAR trained crew? I have/had over 35 years experience in both large military multi crew and large civilian aircraft but I would still think it right that the crew be judged by the appropriate authorities rather than being declared guilty on the evidence of a video clip on a website.
Maybe the leg danglers in the back might have assumed that the pilots were competent to carry out a simple ground taxiing manoeuvre.
The left turn was clearly used for positioning, presumably to get into wind for the line up to the parking spot - which the right turn was meant to achieve.
The 'authorities' will doubtless use the video clip as part of their investigation and there is an outside chance that there may be extenuating circumstances in the cause of this accident but I won't be holding my breath.
How many flight safety courses and seminars have you been to where the root cause of an accident/incident is immediately obvious from the first look? I've done plenty although some turn out to be even more of a f**kup than first glance might show.
Not being part of the US Military, I won't get to see the accident report or investigation so I stand by my assumptions/observations until proved otherwise.
You've reached your own opinion on it crab and I dare say mine wouldn't be so dissimilar but yes, there may well be extenuating circumstances.
As you say, we are unlikely to get to know the outcome of the investigation but I believe that so much on the internet these days flies in the face of natural justice, no matter how experienced those making the online judgements might be.
If the authorities decide to court martial some or all of the crew then that's as it should be, but if that does happen at least they will have had their day in court, which is just as it should be.
As you say, we are unlikely to get to know the outcome of the investigation but I believe that so much on the internet these days flies in the face of natural justice, no matter how experienced those making the online judgements might be.
If the authorities decide to court martial some or all of the crew then that's as it should be, but if that does happen at least they will have had their day in court, which is just as it should be.