Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Rotorheads
Reload this Page >

Hot refuelling an AS355 F version

Rotorheads A haven for helicopter professionals to discuss the things that affect them

Hot refuelling an AS355 F version

Reply

Old 10th Jan 2018, 10:41
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: italy
Posts: 118
Hot refuelling an AS355 F version

Dear fellow pilots.
I need some advice from those in the know.
I have been tasked with a job in which hot refuelling my 355 f2 would make the operation a lot easier.
Iíve only done hot refuelling in the Bell 206 and if the wind is favourable it can be done safely.
For the 355 with F engines Iím worried that the exhaust from engine N1 is too close and pointing in the direction of the refuelling point.
Any advice on this? has anyone done it before?
haihio is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10th Jan 2018, 13:34
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Wanaka, NZ
Posts: 1,654
You mean from an OHSW point of view, the refueller being gassed by the engine exhaust?
gulliBell is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10th Jan 2018, 16:51
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,043
Years ago did it a lot. Never had a problem. (all grounding wires and other safety precautions done.) grounding very important as it was winter ( more static )and the beast was on fixed floats too.

Also some company OPS manuals or local authorities do not allow hot refueling so check that.
albatross is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10th Jan 2018, 20:46
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: uk
Posts: 138
haihio, I have been doing it for years with my 355. never had an issue.
Just don"t open any cowlings to look in, they will hit the rotor blades!
claudia is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11th Jan 2018, 03:40
  #5 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: italy
Posts: 118
thanks for replies. I need to ferry pax to an lp at 10.7k and I want to do it with minimum fuel so I will probably refuel after each trip or after two Trips. My concern with hot refuelling the 355 is the hot exhaust getting close to the refuelling nozzle And a danger of fire
haihio is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11th Jan 2018, 03:53
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Wanaka, NZ
Posts: 1,654
Originally Posted by haihio View Post
..My concern with hot refuelling the 355 is the hot exhaust getting close to the refuelling nozzle And a danger of fire
No chance. Put a small puddle of kerosene on the ground and try and light it with a match, see how difficult it is.
gulliBell is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11th Jan 2018, 05:46
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Tasmania and High Wollemi
Posts: 375
just make sure the person on the nozzle knows what they are doing including putting the cap and bonding on AND off

Pitcha if I could get this to workl https://www.google.com.au/search?q=b...Qei3Nq7MDwgXM:


Last edited by Senior Pilot; 11th Jan 2018 at 23:49. Reason: Image insert
catseye is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11th Jan 2018, 06:03
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Wanaka, NZ
Posts: 1,654
Originally Posted by catseye View Post
..Pitcha if I could get this to workl https://www.google.com.au/search?q=b...Qei3Nq7MDwgXM:
Are they hot refueling that 212 with no pilot at the controls?
gulliBell is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11th Jan 2018, 06:33
  #9 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: italy
Posts: 118
Copy that. Thanks
haihio is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11th Jan 2018, 06:34
  #10 (permalink)  

 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wycombe, Prestwick & Calgary
Age: 66
Posts: 3,607
"No chance. Put a small puddle of kerosene on the ground and try and light it with a match, see how difficult it is."

Yeah, right.

The last airtrooper to do that in the air corps (as a demo to a new guy) set fire to a Scout. I believe he ended up as the COs driver - go figure.

Last edited by paco; 11th Jan 2018 at 09:37.
paco is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 11th Jan 2018, 06:50
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 38
We happily hot refuel a 355 F model almost every day. No more risky than the 206 in my opinion. Biggest risk is flying off with the fuel caps sitting in the step. The good news is that when (not if) you do it, as long as you stay in balance it will still be there when you land haha.
Jelico is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11th Jan 2018, 08:09
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 3,626
HaiHio - so far so good, yes?

Now you're going to tell everyone that you are the single pilot and the cab will be burning and turning with you outside - refuelling - no?
Thomas coupling is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11th Jan 2018, 10:39
  #13 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: italy
Posts: 118
Iíll be operating single pilot but I have ground crew for refuelling.
And by the way Iím not in easa land.
haihio is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11th Jan 2018, 10:46
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: New Zealand
Age: 46
Posts: 350
TC, he will probably answer yes to all those qís. It is a procedure that is done perfectly safely, and legally, hundreds of times a day, by hundreds of pilots.

When did you last hear of a problem with a Turbine machine having a problem. There has been the odd 44 that has burnt, but pretty sure it isnít legal in as many places due to higher risk with Avgas
SuperF is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11th Jan 2018, 11:36
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 3,626
http://airbushelicoptersinc.com/imag...t-Controls.pdf
https://www.aia.org.nz/site/aianz/Un...20Controls.pdf

https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/g/file...13_desktop.pdf
https://robinsonheli.com/wp-content/..._full_book.pdf

SuperF you talk bollocks sometimes........

When is leaving a helicopter unattended EVER the right thing and the safest thing to do?? Granted someone out there will state an alternative but it doesn't detract from the basics - it is UNSAFE, UNWISE and downright stupid.

PS: None of the above are in la la EASA land either.
Thomas coupling is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11th Jan 2018, 13:43
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 1,086
Originally Posted by gulliBell View Post
Are they hot refueling that 212 with no pilot at the controls?
Pilot is probably in the left seat with the bubble window.
havick is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11th Jan 2018, 14:05
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Wanaka, NZ
Posts: 1,654
Originally Posted by havick View Post
Pilot is probably in the left seat with the bubble window.
Yeah, probably. It would be interesting winching whilst flying from the left seat single pilot, I've not tried that before.
gulliBell is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11th Jan 2018, 14:16
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: On the big blue planet
Posts: 853
Originally Posted by havick View Post
Pilot is probably in the left seat with the bubble window.
I think no, you could see the lefthand headrest.

And in this foto it seems also no one is in the cockpit?




skadi
skadi is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 11th Jan 2018, 15:59
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 298
In Canada it is legal to hot refuel, if it is approved in your OPS manual, of course you need all the grounding cable in place before getting the fuel AND a pilot should be at the controls while getting it AND no passengers on board during the refueling.
But it will happen occasionally (maybe a little bit more than occasionally) where the pilot will hot fuel his own aircraft but not legal at least not in Canada.

JD
fijdor is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11th Jan 2018, 18:19
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: New Zealand
Age: 46
Posts: 350
Sorry to blow your mind TC, but things do happen safely and legally outside of your very limited view of aviation.

So to prove that I am wrong about leaving a helicopter without a pilot at the controls you link:

1. A document from Airbus that now makes it Legal to do it, even if they donít recommend it!! Prior to this it was illegal but the have acknowledged that it is done and have reduced the restriction in the flight manual!

2. A document from the NZAIA, actually it was the helicopter committee of that organisation that I happen to be on, I remember sitting having this discussion with our CAA about this very issue. That document is a procedure that describes exactly how to do what I have said can be done safely and legally.

3 and 4 no idea, far to many pages to read on a phone!

I am guessing that somewhere the one from Robinson says that the pilot must be seated at the controls while the blades are turning, or something similar.

So letís clear a few things up.

Do not hot refuel with Avgas, higher flash point just silly. We actually had some idiot do it in NZ,R44 I think, with those lovely static creating nylon overalls that everyone likes to wear now, burnt his machine!!!

Engine blades at Ground idle, 66% roughly.

Stay close, within the rotor disk is best if you can, but close!

Controls locks/frictions as appropriate for machine.

Check weather conditions, donít be a dick!

Listen to your machine! You can hear it starting to wind up, and it will give you plenty of warning that it wants to fly. If you cannot hear your helicopter engine starting to wind up, if you are in it or outside it, then you shouldnít be flying.

Airbus now allow it, it is NOW legal to hop out with rotors turning.

Bell just donít care. They say minimum crew 1 pilot for flight. Flight time is skids up to skids down. So if the skids arenít off the ground then you are not flying, therefore you do not have to have a pilot at the controls!! Ask a lawyer!

If anyone ever wants to see how hard it is for these things to fly away by themselves, sit at ground idle and pull collective, engine will slow, blades will droop, but no flying away...

If you need more proof come to NZ, contact me, I will run my helicopter for you and show you how safe it is if done properly.
SuperF is offline  
Reply With Quote

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service