Midair Collision Near Waddesdon
Smarter, faster, safer and cheaper than what has come before.
There is hope that the fundamental problem of moving in three dimensions without being able to see 360 degrees will be solved for GA.
Mjb
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A sad day for the industry. Heartfelt condolences to the families that have lost loved ones.
The rotary fraternity have lost one of the nicest and most professional pilots I’ve ever encountered.
Many good chats and happy memories.
Have a long history with HS at WAP and can only imagine what those guys are going through.
The rotary fraternity have lost one of the nicest and most professional pilots I’ve ever encountered.
Many good chats and happy memories.
Have a long history with HS at WAP and can only imagine what those guys are going through.
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Yes it is called MULTILATERATION and works in time-domain just like
the GPS. True is that data is not accurate like WAAS assisted aviation
GPS (better than 7,5 m x,y,z error) but it is within 50 m of real x,y,z
in relation to WGS84 so that z may be in question to real ground but
not in relative loss of high. FR "radar site" is getting time and positon
from GPS running full time like this:
the GPS. True is that data is not accurate like WAAS assisted aviation
GPS (better than 7,5 m x,y,z error) but it is within 50 m of real x,y,z
in relation to WGS84 so that z may be in question to real ground but
not in relative loss of high. FR "radar site" is getting time and positon
from GPS running full time like this:
Where does the accuracy of 50m for x,y,z come from? I've never heard of a specific accuracy for FR24 but would be interested to know if its implentation of MLAT really is that accurate.
I'm afraid that the "radar site" getting time and position from a GPS attached to the receiver is outdated by several years. Whilst a GPS can be used, flightradar allows users to enter X,Y and Z of their receiver (or more specifically their antenna) without ever having to connect to a GPS. If the GPS was (still) a requirement then the data would likely be a fair bit more reliable.
Edit: Just googled - Here is the official accuracy statement for MLAT from the flightradar blog: "MLAT position calculations have a general accuracy of 10-100 meters and 1000 meters in the worst cases."
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A gadget is a self opening bin or a touch sensitive light. TCAS is the ABS on your car or the system that stops trains passing red signals (TPWS if you're interested 
).
When our phones have the power of supercomputers there is no technical reason why EVERY aircraft, including UAVs, can't broadcast its position.
That only leaves geese, but even A320s have problems with them.
). When our phones have the power of supercomputers there is no technical reason why EVERY aircraft, including UAVs, can't broadcast its position.
That only leaves geese, but even A320s have problems with them.
I've found the Mk1 Eyeball system very reliable for GA VFR that requires zero investment and is by default carried on board every flying machine.
Some posters have referred to the extra distraction of reprogramming GPS in flight and selecting new VHF freqs. The latter is compounded by having to click through more digits on 8.33 radios.
In his article 'Visual Navigator', written by Neil Williams 40 years ago, there is the following, which I think still applies today:
Nobody has immunity from collision risk. The golden rule for visual flying is nine seconds with one's head out of the cockpit for every one second in.
I often wonder whether there is too much unnecessary VHF traffic in Class G airspace - another distraction. Not to mention that some pilots relax their lookout when they're talking to somebody on the ground on the basis that 'ATC are looking after me'. It might be an interesting experiment to have a 'radio silence' day in which all pilots in Class G operate with comms switched off - that would sharpen lookout!
In his article 'Visual Navigator', written by Neil Williams 40 years ago, there is the following, which I think still applies today:
Nobody has immunity from collision risk. The golden rule for visual flying is nine seconds with one's head out of the cockpit for every one second in.
I often wonder whether there is too much unnecessary VHF traffic in Class G airspace - another distraction. Not to mention that some pilots relax their lookout when they're talking to somebody on the ground on the basis that 'ATC are looking after me'. It might be an interesting experiment to have a 'radio silence' day in which all pilots in Class G operate with comms switched off - that would sharpen lookout!
Last edited by Discorde; 18th Nov 2017 at 11:53. Reason: qualification 'unnecessary' added
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The simple fact is, if both had Mode C and even one had TCAS, the accident would have been avoided if the RA was followed.
Mode C was compulsory in the USA more than 25 years ago, it is mandatory in Belgium airspace. It's should be mandatory in UK.
For those dinosaurs anti-TCAS, turn yours off if you have one, but keep your Mode C on. Then if you're coming up behind me fast I do not die if your lookout skills are lacking. I don't want to die due to someone's poor lookout so I will keep my TCAS on. (there are enough studies to show that lookout for collision avoidance is a flawed policy)
But remember if that jet at 250 kts coming up behind you doesn't see you and is also anti TCAS (and has it switched off to improve his lookout !!) .. you may wish you had TCAS in your final moments.
Yesterday the weather was good, what if the visibility is 1000m and two aircraft are on a collision course at high speed. Mr lookout may not have a chance to avoid. What if IMC?
It's time to do something to stop any more unnecessary deaths. Mode C allows ATC to provide a safer "traffic service" and allows RA's to work.
Mode C was compulsory in the USA more than 25 years ago, it is mandatory in Belgium airspace. It's should be mandatory in UK.
For those dinosaurs anti-TCAS, turn yours off if you have one, but keep your Mode C on. Then if you're coming up behind me fast I do not die if your lookout skills are lacking. I don't want to die due to someone's poor lookout so I will keep my TCAS on. (there are enough studies to show that lookout for collision avoidance is a flawed policy)
But remember if that jet at 250 kts coming up behind you doesn't see you and is also anti TCAS (and has it switched off to improve his lookout !!) .. you may wish you had TCAS in your final moments.
Yesterday the weather was good, what if the visibility is 1000m and two aircraft are on a collision course at high speed. Mr lookout may not have a chance to avoid. What if IMC?
It's time to do something to stop any more unnecessary deaths. Mode C allows ATC to provide a safer "traffic service" and allows RA's to work.
Noblues .
"I've found the Mk1 Eyeball system very reliable for GA VFR that requires zero investment and is by default carried on board every flying" machine.
Sounds like you are saying this could not have happened to you . Incredible stupidity to rule out a piece of tech that I truly believe would have saved them .
"I've found the Mk1 Eyeball system very reliable for GA VFR that requires zero investment and is by default carried on board every flying" machine.
Sounds like you are saying this could not have happened to you . Incredible stupidity to rule out a piece of tech that I truly believe would have saved them .
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I see the Daily Mail is quoting from posts on this thread: be aware!
Plus an interview with PACO:
One pilot said it was easy to be distracted by the estate.
Writing on an internet flying forum, the 36-year-old added: 'I've been guilty of paying too much attention to pointing passengers to the Rothschild palace and not enough to a lookout.'
Writing on an internet flying forum, the 36-year-old added: 'I've been guilty of paying too much attention to pointing passengers to the Rothschild palace and not enough to a lookout.'
None of the victims had been named last night, but the dead helicopter pilot's friend and former colleague Captain Phil Croucher said: 'He was probably the most respected instructor in the country.
'He achieved a very high position in the Army. If you wanted a training instructor there's no one more highly qualified.
'Almost everybody in the country has been instructed by him – most instructors have been trained by him. Everybody in the industry looked up to him.'
He was said to have been training a foreign flying student on a beginners' course when the helicopter crashed.
Captain Croucher, 65, of Ayrshire, said the pilot, who worked for Helicopter Services flying school near Aylesbury, was in his sixties and had a partner and family,
He added: 'I was shocked and surprised to hear what had happened. He was a real gentleman. Of course it is an industry where this does happen. We don't stop, we just get on and do the job, he wouldn't have wanted me to stop flying.'
Flight data shows a two-seater helicopter was flying at 1,025ft in the area at the time, but suddenly went off radar shortly after 12 noon. It had only been in the air for 15 minutes.
'He achieved a very high position in the Army. If you wanted a training instructor there's no one more highly qualified.
'Almost everybody in the country has been instructed by him – most instructors have been trained by him. Everybody in the industry looked up to him.'
He was said to have been training a foreign flying student on a beginners' course when the helicopter crashed.
Captain Croucher, 65, of Ayrshire, said the pilot, who worked for Helicopter Services flying school near Aylesbury, was in his sixties and had a partner and family,
He added: 'I was shocked and surprised to hear what had happened. He was a real gentleman. Of course it is an industry where this does happen. We don't stop, we just get on and do the job, he wouldn't have wanted me to stop flying.'
Flight data shows a two-seater helicopter was flying at 1,025ft in the area at the time, but suddenly went off radar shortly after 12 noon. It had only been in the air for 15 minutes.
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We are in danger of loosing the plot here, TCAS is far too expensive & heavy for fitment to small GA types so is a non starter, it should also be rmebered that Two TCAS equipped airlines collided over Switzerland a few years back.
ADS-B probably is the best answer, the UK CAA has been moving in that direction ( albeit hindered by EASA ) and awairness equipment like FLARM is avalable and widely used by gliders and the more forward thinking in powered Aircraft.
Even if the take up of such equipment was 100% there would still be a risk. The last thing we have to deal with is the civil liberties types who object to broadcast their position on privacy grounds............ I wonder what the civil liberties issues of being six foot under the ground are ?
ADS-B probably is the best answer, the UK CAA has been moving in that direction ( albeit hindered by EASA ) and awairness equipment like FLARM is avalable and widely used by gliders and the more forward thinking in powered Aircraft.
Even if the take up of such equipment was 100% there would still be a risk. The last thing we have to deal with is the civil liberties types who object to broadcast their position on privacy grounds............ I wonder what the civil liberties issues of being six foot under the ground are ?
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I'm fully aware of what TCAS is PerPurumTonantes, its superb in a commercial environment within IFR. Its saved my bacon a few times flying down through say certain parts of Africa and a few other less well controlled parts of the planet in my day job - But my view is it has no place in GA.
I've found the Mk1 Eyeball system very reliable for GA VFR that requires zero investment and is by default carried on board every flying machine.
I've found the Mk1 Eyeball system very reliable for GA VFR that requires zero investment and is by default carried on board every flying machine.
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A and C
Agree with TCAS - that can be a personal choice. No one is advocating TCAS for all, but Mode C for all is inexpensive and lightweight.
And, yes of course there can be a collision if the RA is not followed. You could say the same about a stick shaker - people have pulled instead of pushed !
Agree with TCAS - that can be a personal choice. No one is advocating TCAS for all, but Mode C for all is inexpensive and lightweight.
And, yes of course there can be a collision if the RA is not followed. You could say the same about a stick shaker - people have pulled instead of pushed !
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Hi Guys,
In this thread I have seen two or three comments to the effect that in the turn visibility from the cockpit of a high wing aircraft is poorer than from a low wing aircraft. If these comments are intended to compare visibility from an aircraft such as a C152/172 to that from a Pa28, or similar, then I would strongly disagree. In my view there is no difference. When you do a turn in a Pa28 the upper edge of the into-turn window frame comes down and the roof then obscures your into-turn visibility every bit as completely as the wing of a C152/172. Hence, in both aircraft types, before turning it is vital to turn your head and shoulders round and take a really good look, using the good old Mk 1 eyeball, to make sure that there is no other traffic in the way of your intended turn. (This is one reason why I so liked the Sky Arrow; tandem seating, blister canopy, and wings that were above and behind the pilot).
Regards,
BP.
In this thread I have seen two or three comments to the effect that in the turn visibility from the cockpit of a high wing aircraft is poorer than from a low wing aircraft. If these comments are intended to compare visibility from an aircraft such as a C152/172 to that from a Pa28, or similar, then I would strongly disagree. In my view there is no difference. When you do a turn in a Pa28 the upper edge of the into-turn window frame comes down and the roof then obscures your into-turn visibility every bit as completely as the wing of a C152/172. Hence, in both aircraft types, before turning it is vital to turn your head and shoulders round and take a really good look, using the good old Mk 1 eyeball, to make sure that there is no other traffic in the way of your intended turn. (This is one reason why I so liked the Sky Arrow; tandem seating, blister canopy, and wings that were above and behind the pilot).
Regards,
BP.
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I was taught originally to change frequency you continue to look out and find the knob blind as you know the frequency you are on you count the clicks to the frequency you want then glance over and check and adjust. I also have a GTN650 touchscreen which results in far more eyes in time particularly in turbulence as its very hard to keep your finger stable yes the frequencies are all to hand in the database but you have to be expert on a very complex bit of kit to find it very fast and it can't be done blind
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The unfortunate controller was later tracked down and stabbed to death by a parent of one of the Russian children on board. Stories don't get much more tragic than that.
If both pilots had followed their TCAS the accident would have been avoided.
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It was not standard to have to follow TCAS in any case like it is today at that time. So don't blame the pilot.
ATC was understaffed, had phone-line troubles and gave conflicting instructions. So I'm not blaming that poor ATC guy neither. The ATC organization above did a poor job that day.
ATC was understaffed, had phone-line troubles and gave conflicting instructions. So I'm not blaming that poor ATC guy neither. The ATC organization above did a poor job that day.
Unlike one of the above contributors - I cannot imagine what it must be like at HS.
Condolences thread required.
Such a nice guy, who knew no limits when helping someone.
There is now a huge void in the Helicopter world.
Condolences thread required.
Such a nice guy, who knew no limits when helping someone.
There is now a huge void in the Helicopter world.
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russian-roulette
Why would any one fit a mode C transponder these days when mode S is mandated almost everywhere ?
I have seen some of the certified traffic systems and most of these are expensive and heavy so only suitable for the upper end of the single engine market.
The traffic system that seems to meet the lower end of the market is POWER FLARM, the cost of the system is low ( about £2K ) and the system weight is about 0.5Lb. It will detect and give position of Mode S , ADS-B & FLARM targets and proximity to mode C targets. The system is Garmin Compatable so those with Garmin moving map displays can see the traffic. This is the traffic system road I am going down with the display going onto a G500.
This system should only be seen as a back up for the Mk 1 eyeball but with my main collision threat coming from gliders ( that are very hard to see ) and with the FLARM take up within the gliding community being so high the POWER FLARM system represents a considerable safety improvement for not much cash. I know that installation in a wooden Aircraft such as mine is simple but even with the issue external antenna fitting FLARM to metal Aircraft the cost is reasonable .
This can ( at last ) be done under EASA CS-STAN ( as can mode S retrofit ) so the paperwork costs are very low.
I have seen some of the certified traffic systems and most of these are expensive and heavy so only suitable for the upper end of the single engine market.
The traffic system that seems to meet the lower end of the market is POWER FLARM, the cost of the system is low ( about £2K ) and the system weight is about 0.5Lb. It will detect and give position of Mode S , ADS-B & FLARM targets and proximity to mode C targets. The system is Garmin Compatable so those with Garmin moving map displays can see the traffic. This is the traffic system road I am going down with the display going onto a G500.
This system should only be seen as a back up for the Mk 1 eyeball but with my main collision threat coming from gliders ( that are very hard to see ) and with the FLARM take up within the gliding community being so high the POWER FLARM system represents a considerable safety improvement for not much cash. I know that installation in a wooden Aircraft such as mine is simple but even with the issue external antenna fitting FLARM to metal Aircraft the cost is reasonable .
This can ( at last ) be done under EASA CS-STAN ( as can mode S retrofit ) so the paperwork costs are very low.
Avoid imitations
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A and C
Agree with TCAS - that can be a personal choice. No one is advocating TCAS for all, but Mode C for all is inexpensive and lightweight.
And, yes of course there can be a collision if the RA is not followed. You could say the same about a stick shaker - people have pulled instead of pushed !
Agree with TCAS - that can be a personal choice. No one is advocating TCAS for all, but Mode C for all is inexpensive and lightweight.
And, yes of course there can be a collision if the RA is not followed. You could say the same about a stick shaker - people have pulled instead of pushed !
I posted on this forum very many years ago to explain that the full use of the transponder with mode c where fitted was a great asset to safety because a TCAS equipped aircraft could "see" other aircraft well beyond the range of human eyesight. I got heavily criticised by some who claimed I was using it as an excuse not to look out and even by some who considered the use of a transponder a breach of their human right to remain anonymous in flight!
Last edited by ShyTorque; 18th Nov 2017 at 16:21. Reason: factual error correction!
I have only flown with TCAS for the last 3 years and even with the odd false alert or wrong sector indication, it is far, far better than just relying on the Mk1 eyeball.
The wannabe (or ex) fighter pilots need to remember that not all Mk 1 eyeballs are equal and a great may GA pilots are of more mature years - are spectacle wearers (possibly bi or tri focal) or just have less than perfect eyesight. Add in creaky or arthritic necks and you have great potential for degraded lookout.
There is no reason that all flying machines shouldn't be equipped with a transponder at the very least - you wouldn't go out driving at night without your headlights on. Remember it is SEE and BE SEEN.
Allow those with TCAS to see you even if you don't have it fitted yourself.
The system I use is a simple display but it has an audio alert - no RAs or anything, just distance and clock code - but it has helped me see aircraft far earlier than I could have noticed/identified them with the naked eye.
Technology might not be the absolute solution but it goes a bloody long way towards it.
The wannabe (or ex) fighter pilots need to remember that not all Mk 1 eyeballs are equal and a great may GA pilots are of more mature years - are spectacle wearers (possibly bi or tri focal) or just have less than perfect eyesight. Add in creaky or arthritic necks and you have great potential for degraded lookout.
There is no reason that all flying machines shouldn't be equipped with a transponder at the very least - you wouldn't go out driving at night without your headlights on. Remember it is SEE and BE SEEN.
Allow those with TCAS to see you even if you don't have it fitted yourself.
The system I use is a simple display but it has an audio alert - no RAs or anything, just distance and clock code - but it has helped me see aircraft far earlier than I could have noticed/identified them with the naked eye.
Technology might not be the absolute solution but it goes a bloody long way towards it.