Instrument flying; how important is the Attitude Indicator?

[SASless]

Attitude Indicators.....primary or secondary instrument for Instrument Flying?

[LRP]

Originally Posted by SASless

Attitude Indicators.....primary or secondary instrument for Instrument Flying?

Depends on mode of flight. Normally a supporting instrument. In cruise flight: primary pitch = altimeter, primary turn = heading indicator, primary power = airspeed. (if you remember your Army days...you were only going to have the attitude indicator for the ITO, then it was going to "fail")

[oleary]

Primary

Originally Posted by SASless

Attitude Indicators.....primary or secondary instrument for Instrument Flying?

I did 8 years in the Beaufort Sea and high Arctic in the 212, 61 and 76 much of it at night. When we took off from a rig deck the calls are: PF "coming up" (applies power at least 15% above hover power), PNF calls "20", "40", "rotate" (5% nose down on the AI), PF calls "positive rate" (of climb).

I actually had an AI fail (slow tumble indicating roll right and nose down) with no flag just after rotation during a rig departure at night. I warned my co to get ready to take control if needed as I transitioned to the standby horizon in the centre of the panel.

We also did a lot of night slinging. When training new pilots I can recall a few times when the AI went all Grey then all Black, .... then all Grey again. I suggested to the lads that when this happens it is simultaneously "wings level" (on the AI) and "pitch to zero" (on the AI), then evaluate.

Finally, all our engine out on takeoff drills were predicated on "x degrees nose down" (on the AI), accelerate to Vtoss, level (on the AI), then accelerate to Vbroc.

So my vote is "primary".

[Vertical Freedom]

An AH is not required for DayVFR....simply maintain visual reference with the ground at ALL times - nuff said

[paco]

"Attitude Indicators.....primary or secondary instrument for Instrument Flying?"

I was taught that it was useful, but a backup. The Army taught me to fly partial panel (on the Beaver), which was back in the day when they were notoriously unreliable.

Phil

[Anywing]

Originally Posted by SASless

Attitude Indicators.....primary or secondary instrument for Instrument Flying?

Primary is the attitude of the pilot... The helicopter didn't fly into the clouds, the pilot did. In that situation most of would got a strange feeling of rather being on the ground, turn around and go to plan B, land. Some pilots apperently do not get that feeling. I have experienced pilots wo wanted to fly a Robinson helicopter into an area with forecasted severe turbulence. It was very hard to convince them of not doing that revering to the limitation sector of the afm/poh. People wo wanted to fly a aerial inspection returnflight from homebase in bad weather while our schedule has plenty space and the coming days the weather should be fine. In my opinion it was not commercialy a good idee...CPL... commercial pilot, think of the costst.
As said before, in my opinion it is about decision making, planning, respecting limits, knowing your ability and avoiding commercial pressure or your own pride.

Safe flights to all

[[email protected]]

Surprising attitudes (pun intended) to the use of the AI/AH - it is the primary instrument for instrument flying as anyone who has taught IF will tell you.

It is even more important in RW compared to FW since the platform is so much more unstable.

Yes, you can fly straight and level in the cruise without using the AI/AH but anything that requires manoeuvering with any accuracy needs the AI/AH.

[Georg1na]

Spot on Crab - as anyone who has flown a Whirlwind 7 in cloud will surely attest. AI always the centre of ones scan.

[Vertical Freedom]

Yes, you can fly straight and level in the cruise without using the AI/AH but anything that requires manoeuvring with any accuracy needs the AI/AH.

That's amazing, been humping the Cyclic for 28years the last 11 in extreme Mountains & I never ever look at the AH/AI, not once yet I gotta do some extreme manoeuvres in some pretty narrow gorges in weather? I was trained that my Airspeed indicator is my stick position (attitude) indicator & I look outside for everything else except, for speed & engine gauges. I never realised I needed an AH for all this flying always learning but

[skadi]

Originally Posted by Vertical Freedom

I look outside for everything else except, for speed & engine gauges. I never realised I needed an AH for all this flying always learning but

...and what do you see outside in IMC???

skadi

[Vertical Freedom]

DayVFR thread into deliberate illegal IMC

Originally Posted by skadi

...and what do you see outside in IMC???

skadi

ow You mean approaching beer o'clock??? Well, well before IMC; land, put the machine to bed, then park myself on a comfy chair & stare at the next beer through my special IMC beer goggles

[nigelh]

I think VF is playing with you ....!! Flying in his area is all VFR , even in v poor viz . No option to climb . Apart from that ...he is flying a single !

[Heli-Jock]

Originally Posted by Twist & Shout

You should be scared of the IMC. That's what caused the low RRPM horn.
The Pilot was completely disoriented being devoid the visual cues he had relied on since his first ever flight, and did what almost always happens: responded desperately to inaccurate cues (accelerations and noises were all he had left). He almost certainly "pulled the collective to the roof" to arrest a perceived (and possibly real) decent, or when he glimpsed the world rushing up to kill him.

The thread drift is unreal.

IFR/IMC/Gold bars.
It would have been illegal and dangerous for a qualified IFR Pilot in a capable and certified IFR machine to have been where that foolish Pilot was. (In IMC, below LSALT and not on a published procedure.)

The simple fact is the Pilot chose to push on into totally unsuitable meteorological conditions and killed his pax. Criminal negligence. Ultimate price paid by all on board.

"Here Here",,,totally agree and apart from that,,,I have No words for the stupidity of this pilot!

[skadi]

Originally Posted by nigelh

I think VF is playing with you ....!! Flying in his area is all VFR , even in v poor viz . No option to climb . Apart from that ...he is flying a single !

I know, and I am absolutely with him concerning his flying in Nepal. But he quoted [email protected], who surely talked about flying in IMC and there you should use an AH

skadi

[[email protected]]

However, if the mountain flying is extreme and in poor weather, the AI is still an important instrument as it helps you avoid false horizons caused by the slope and strata of the mountains which can be very confusing.

Or you can just pump the cyclic, ignore the AoB and its effect on your power requirements........................

[Georg1na]

Spot on again Crab. The AH in clag is your life saver................VF I admire your flying career enormously but if you have never looked at your AH you are a very brave man - and have never flown a Whirlwind 7 in cloud!!!

[SuperF]

i have never looked at an AH either. none of my helis have one...

[Vertical Freedom]

Originally Posted by SuperF

i have never looked at an AH either. none of my helis have one...

I'm wid You SuperF...only the AH 's here are not maintained to an IFR standard so it'd be damn dangerous to trust one. I doubt any DayVFR machines AH is maintained I'm sure Your flying in the NZ Mountains that too have some crappy weather

Hey crab......weather in the Himalayas is extremely ****ty, layered & very dodgy 9 months of the year, stooging about in valleys that have ridge-lines up at 25,000' whilst flying down at 10,000' & yet, I've never been IMC ever I've yet to use the AH & yes one eye is always glued to the FLI, another eye to the IAS & my third eye is always scanning outside

Stay Happy...Stay VMC

[Vertical Freedom]

Please correct me if I'm wrong; the AH is not a required instrument legally for DayVFR?

Once You've pressed on for far too far & Your thinking that an unserviced AH in a VFR machine, without an IF procedure, below LSA/MSA is gonna save Your arse in Mountain soup.....you'll end up like this gung-ho Pilot this sad thread is about

Stay up right & stay within limits

[JimL]

This thread probably needs to be split into two: the discussion about this incident and operations in VFR; and, another on the important issue of why the scan of a helicopter pilot differs from that of his fixed-wing cousin.

In a recent RAeS presentation of eye-scanning, it was shown that some helicopter pilots (both experienced and not-so-experienced) were not using the AH as the fulcrum of their scan for flight in IMC. It is important to see this not as a fault on their part but as an issue that needs to be understood.

Jim