lies, damn lies and autogyro accident rates?
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The point I was making was it appeard to be a "by numbers take off," It suggests that he did not follow the 1,2,3 procedure and ended up in a skills defecit area. hadf he nursed the blades up to speed maybe this would not have happened ... he is not the first, nor the last, I seem to recall 2 others almost exactly the same, was it Ashford, and shoreham ?
a min equipment list would be interesting pre rotator , radio, gps? rotor brake ? wheel brakes, volt meter ?,
a min equipment list would be interesting pre rotator , radio, gps? rotor brake ? wheel brakes, volt meter ?,
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SandL
Remember, with a modern factory built gyrocopter we are looking to get 500kg into the air without taking miles of runway. It makes sense to pre-rotate and start accelerating as quickly as possible - not necessarily with full power. Yes you need rotor awareness, but "nursing the rotor up to speed" is just not part of the required regime for one of these machines.
I guess where we differ is that you seem to be arguing that there is a fundamental flaw in the current training methods, whereas my experiences from training with Roger, Phil and 2 others is is that the standard is remarkable high.
Mark
Remember, with a modern factory built gyrocopter we are looking to get 500kg into the air without taking miles of runway. It makes sense to pre-rotate and start accelerating as quickly as possible - not necessarily with full power. Yes you need rotor awareness, but "nursing the rotor up to speed" is just not part of the required regime for one of these machines.
I guess where we differ is that you seem to be arguing that there is a fundamental flaw in the current training methods, whereas my experiences from training with Roger, Phil and 2 others is is that the standard is remarkable high.
Mark
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it was not the first and not the last of this type of accident , there have beene 2 more almost exactly the same from my recollection. was it ashford or shoreham ?
min equipment would also be interesting, if radio, GPS, wheel brakes or rotor tach were to fail are they no fly situations ?
min equipment would also be interesting, if radio, GPS, wheel brakes or rotor tach were to fail are they no fly situations ?
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It's a general slow loss of knowledge, years after years, Gyros be much more easy to fly, much more safe and student want to fly alone quickly.
So we learn less and less ... we know just the minimum, then we are lucky ... or not ... it is verifiable in all educational structures. Whether it's for the car license or for the pilot license ....
When I passed my driving license, I had to know, in addition to the rest, how to change a wheel. When I passed my helicopter pilot certificate, it was necessary to know how to make autorotation in a straight line and in Ushape ... engine down
Today, new drivers hardly know how to park in reverse : they have the "radar" or the reverse camera to help them.... and the EASA only requires the instructors to only "demonstrate" ONLY ONE autorotation with engine cut to students ... The engine are so safe now,....
It is the same for plane and others ...Much more technology, much less more human knowledge .
Be careful, i am happy to use the technology and my reverse camera when i park, but i am "old school" and i know i can park without.
sorry for my bad english, i am French, nobody's perfect
So we learn less and less ... we know just the minimum, then we are lucky ... or not ... it is verifiable in all educational structures. Whether it's for the car license or for the pilot license ....
When I passed my driving license, I had to know, in addition to the rest, how to change a wheel. When I passed my helicopter pilot certificate, it was necessary to know how to make autorotation in a straight line and in Ushape ... engine down
Today, new drivers hardly know how to park in reverse : they have the "radar" or the reverse camera to help them.... and the EASA only requires the instructors to only "demonstrate" ONLY ONE autorotation with engine cut to students ... The engine are so safe now,....
It is the same for plane and others ...Much more technology, much less more human knowledge .
Be careful, i am happy to use the technology and my reverse camera when i park, but i am "old school" and i know i can park without.
sorry for my bad english, i am French, nobody's perfect
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are you saying they want to fly "alone" more quickly than they would have done back in the days when there were only single seat gyrocopters?
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agree with bobcat
take fixed wing for example ... spinning used to be part of the PPL(A) sylabus, so if you put a "new" PPL(A) into a full spinn will they be able to recover ?
or are we releying on modern aircraft being safer and spinn proof. then take that PPL(A) student and put them in a C150 or Piper Cub. ?
Thant is why the MT pilot is not licenced to fly a Bensen, or cricket, it simply requires additional understanding and training. I believe some of those skills have been given a "lighter touch" in the new gyros.
take fixed wing for example ... spinning used to be part of the PPL(A) sylabus, so if you put a "new" PPL(A) into a full spinn will they be able to recover ?
or are we releying on modern aircraft being safer and spinn proof. then take that PPL(A) student and put them in a C150 or Piper Cub. ?
Thant is why the MT pilot is not licenced to fly a Bensen, or cricket, it simply requires additional understanding and training. I believe some of those skills have been given a "lighter touch" in the new gyros.
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SandL
People die when they spin in form a height that you could not recover from. So, learning to recover form a fully developed spin is less use than learning to stop a spin at the incipient stage. It has absolutely bugger all to do with modern aircraft being spin proof. where on earth did you get that idea from?
Most PPLs still learn on 152s so putting them in a 150 worries you how? And you can't put them in a cub unless they have done differences training because it is tail wheel so no idea what point you are trying to make there.
All all of the above is why (not really but as you seem to be using non sequiturs on this thread I'll join in
) a Bensen or Cricket pilot requires additional training before the can fly modern factory build gyro.
Are you really truly arguing the point that those who fly old kit build single seat gyros are sky-gods, and the rest of us are ham-fisted buffoons?
Mark
People die when they spin in form a height that you could not recover from. So, learning to recover form a fully developed spin is less use than learning to stop a spin at the incipient stage. It has absolutely bugger all to do with modern aircraft being spin proof. where on earth did you get that idea from?
Most PPLs still learn on 152s so putting them in a 150 worries you how? And you can't put them in a cub unless they have done differences training because it is tail wheel so no idea what point you are trying to make there.
All all of the above is why (not really but as you seem to be using non sequiturs on this thread I'll join in
) a Bensen or Cricket pilot requires additional training before the can fly modern factory build gyro.Are you really truly arguing the point that those who fly old kit build single seat gyros are sky-gods, and the rest of us are ham-fisted buffoons?
Mark
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I have not yet met a sky God.
agree to fly a modern gyro requires difference training as does a tail dragger for a PPL(A) to fly a cub
I have flown giders that spin like a top , then climbed into an unspinable glider.
I am pleased I flew both a spinable glider before flying an unspinable glider.
I am pleased to have had the experience of spinning a C150
I am also please to have learnt gyroplane rotor blade management before flying a modern gyroplane.
The thread title is lies .. damn lies etc .. am am sorry for the thread drift that I have become part of.
I believe gyroplanes are safe as are fixed wing aircraft and guns.
It is all about training, being responsible and sound decision making, recognising when one is vulnerable for an accident ... before it's too late to do something about preventing it. I respect your knowlage and experience and I hope you agree that gyroplanes are safe, in the right hands with the right training. In the bad old days many saw a stick and rudder, jumped in to a gyro and tried to teach themselves believing that they could master it with minimal or no training. This is partly why gyros had such an appauling accident record. that record has improved but it should not be ignored that there have been quite a nuimber of modern gyro accidents in recent years. It is now a matter of identifing common causes, learning from mistakes and adjusting flying habits and training to avoid those common causes. I hope this is being done.
Sir I am no sky God, never have been , never will be, I'm always willing to learn.from those more knowlagable thatn me.
.
agree to fly a modern gyro requires difference training as does a tail dragger for a PPL(A) to fly a cub
I have flown giders that spin like a top , then climbed into an unspinable glider.
I am pleased I flew both a spinable glider before flying an unspinable glider.
I am pleased to have had the experience of spinning a C150
I am also please to have learnt gyroplane rotor blade management before flying a modern gyroplane.
The thread title is lies .. damn lies etc .. am am sorry for the thread drift that I have become part of.
I believe gyroplanes are safe as are fixed wing aircraft and guns.
It is all about training, being responsible and sound decision making, recognising when one is vulnerable for an accident ... before it's too late to do something about preventing it. I respect your knowlage and experience and I hope you agree that gyroplanes are safe, in the right hands with the right training. In the bad old days many saw a stick and rudder, jumped in to a gyro and tried to teach themselves believing that they could master it with minimal or no training. This is partly why gyros had such an appauling accident record. that record has improved but it should not be ignored that there have been quite a nuimber of modern gyro accidents in recent years. It is now a matter of identifing common causes, learning from mistakes and adjusting flying habits and training to avoid those common causes. I hope this is being done.
Sir I am no sky God, never have been , never will be, I'm always willing to learn.from those more knowlagable thatn me.
.
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... there have been quite a nuimber of modern gyro accidents in recent years.
I agree with you that we need good training. And I believe gyro training in the UK is as good as heli, fixed wing and microlight. It's not perfect, but again, it would be bloody weird if it was because nothing in life is perfect.
You have argued that there is a widespread lack of training in relation to rotor management. I think if you can justify that argument with more than a knee jerk reaction to a couple of AAIB reports, you should flag it up to the BRA.
BTW I have no vested interest in the gyro training industry. I'm defending it based on personal experience of 4 excellent instructors combined with simple logical argument.
Mark
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The thread started with a statement that
One of the modern, safe, two seat machines popular in the UK has one sixth (the same rate as Russian Roulette with a revolver!) of the UK fleet de-registered due to "aircraft destroyed". A couple of the other types fair a little better but not much
To me that is a high percentage.
the CAA/LAA (in my opinion) should look at this. the aircraft are not falling apart so there is most probably another issue. I do not know the current BRA comittee but in the past many had a vested business interest in gyros.
I also have no vested interest in any gyro business I just want safety (as do we all).
to improve safety , accident anaylsis needs to be done to look for common causes, once those have been established a rectification needs to take place , as the CAA have done with the "safety sence" leaflets. I am not sure that putting accidents down to simply pilot error or training error and forgotten about is the right way to go.
With rotor management training in single seat training the student is told to sit still over a fixed spot on the ground , pre rotate till you can no longer count individual blades then gently work the blades up using the wind, as the drag comes on more throttle is needed to keep over the spot on the ground. once up to speed the student gradually reduces throttle and rotor speed untill the blades are no longer coning and blades can be counted. I doubt this excercise is carried out on the modern gyros. the value of this is to gain a greater understanding of how the whole lift drag thing works and teaches that you will not climb behind the power required (drag) curve. It involves gentle use of stick and power. It also teaches all about avoiding blade flapping and tail chopping it is all done by look and feel.
the old days of PPO and PIO seem to have dissappeard thank goodness, but with 1/6 of the fleet damaged maybe there are new issues that need addressing.
One of the modern, safe, two seat machines popular in the UK has one sixth (the same rate as Russian Roulette with a revolver!) of the UK fleet de-registered due to "aircraft destroyed". A couple of the other types fair a little better but not much
To me that is a high percentage.
the CAA/LAA (in my opinion) should look at this. the aircraft are not falling apart so there is most probably another issue. I do not know the current BRA comittee but in the past many had a vested business interest in gyros.
I also have no vested interest in any gyro business I just want safety (as do we all).
to improve safety , accident anaylsis needs to be done to look for common causes, once those have been established a rectification needs to take place , as the CAA have done with the "safety sence" leaflets. I am not sure that putting accidents down to simply pilot error or training error and forgotten about is the right way to go.
With rotor management training in single seat training the student is told to sit still over a fixed spot on the ground , pre rotate till you can no longer count individual blades then gently work the blades up using the wind, as the drag comes on more throttle is needed to keep over the spot on the ground. once up to speed the student gradually reduces throttle and rotor speed untill the blades are no longer coning and blades can be counted. I doubt this excercise is carried out on the modern gyros. the value of this is to gain a greater understanding of how the whole lift drag thing works and teaches that you will not climb behind the power required (drag) curve. It involves gentle use of stick and power. It also teaches all about avoiding blade flapping and tail chopping it is all done by look and feel.
the old days of PPO and PIO seem to have dissappeard thank goodness, but with 1/6 of the fleet damaged maybe there are new issues that need addressing.
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Let's not take the 1/6 at face value
There are 55 MT-03 registrations and 4 destroyed. So that's less than a 1/12th. What does that actually tell you anyway unless you have the detail? Not much. One was destroyed last year in a very sad accident where the pilot had a heart attack.
These things are complicated and it is just unhelpful to have people claiming kit is unsafe or there's poor training when they don't have the facts.
If you are in the LAA and read the magazine (especially Malcolm's very readable safety spot) you will know that they are all over any kind of pattern be it mechanical or operational.
Mark
There are 55 MT-03 registrations and 4 destroyed. So that's less than a 1/12th. What does that actually tell you anyway unless you have the detail? Not much. One was destroyed last year in a very sad accident where the pilot had a heart attack.
These things are complicated and it is just unhelpful to have people claiming kit is unsafe or there's poor training when they don't have the facts.
If you are in the LAA and read the magazine (especially Malcolm's very readable safety spot) you will know that they are all over any kind of pattern be it mechanical or operational.
Mark
Last edited by dah dah; 27th May 2017 at 17:28.
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I make it 16 take off incidents involving the new generation of gyros
MT, Calidus M24, Cavalon etc from 2008-2016 some of which would be as you describe a "training accident" but not all. I am sure that like you I am keen to see a reduction in accidents, I think the questions are is this a pattern and if so what can be done about it ? maybe you have some suggestions
I believe the following data is acurate, if not please correct me, If I am wrong I apologise. I simply typed these registrations into the internet. Knowing that gyros have had a doubtful safety record in the past I have spent considerable time resurching as many gyro accident records as I can find so I can learn from others and hopefully stay safe myself . (sorry the data is not easy to read I simply copied it from my accident exel spread sheet) my total data (not shown here) records 38 reported accidents involving the new factory built 2 seats machines in the UK. As you say it's the detail behind the accidents that count of the 38 2 can be dismissed immediately (the very sad medical emergency and the hunt sab accidents) that leaves 36 accidents in total I believe aggh plus 1 more in northern Ireland this week. Every owner of a permit machine has to be an LAA member inorder to get a permit
2014 01-Nov G-JBRE MT03 blades contacted prop on take off (flapping)
2013 10-Apr G-CGMG Calidus blades hammering during take off
2010 01-Nov G-CGGW MTosport behind power curve no climb available
2008 09-May G-CEUI MTo3 student takeoff behind power curve
2011 05-Jun G-CGGV MTosport lack of climb at max AUW & gust
2011 08-Feb G-CGIX MTosport blade flap on takeoff rotor hit tail.
2011 23-Apr G-CGEW MTosport student pulled back stick with insufficient Rotor RPM rotor hit tail.
2015 31-Jul G-CLDS calidus behind power curve during short field take off hereford
2014 05-Mar G-RDNY Cavalon student take off incorrect technique
2013 28-Dec G-PAFF MTosport low rotor RPM on take off chopping the tail
2012 29-Dec G-ETOJ calidus over rotation on take off rotor hit runway
2011 07-Jul G-RSMT MTo3 aircraft would not climb after takeoff (power curve)
2015 08-Apr G-CPCP Calidus rotor blade hit tail pre take off
2016 28-Sep G-CFVG MTosport rollover during takeoff
2016 28-Sep G-CFVG MTosport roll over on takeoff northreps
2011 03-Feb G-CGRT Magni M24 orion early take off rotor not up to speed gust
MT, Calidus M24, Cavalon etc from 2008-2016 some of which would be as you describe a "training accident" but not all. I am sure that like you I am keen to see a reduction in accidents, I think the questions are is this a pattern and if so what can be done about it ? maybe you have some suggestions
I believe the following data is acurate, if not please correct me, If I am wrong I apologise. I simply typed these registrations into the internet. Knowing that gyros have had a doubtful safety record in the past I have spent considerable time resurching as many gyro accident records as I can find so I can learn from others and hopefully stay safe myself . (sorry the data is not easy to read I simply copied it from my accident exel spread sheet) my total data (not shown here) records 38 reported accidents involving the new factory built 2 seats machines in the UK. As you say it's the detail behind the accidents that count of the 38 2 can be dismissed immediately (the very sad medical emergency and the hunt sab accidents) that leaves 36 accidents in total I believe aggh plus 1 more in northern Ireland this week. Every owner of a permit machine has to be an LAA member inorder to get a permit
2014 01-Nov G-JBRE MT03 blades contacted prop on take off (flapping)
2013 10-Apr G-CGMG Calidus blades hammering during take off
2010 01-Nov G-CGGW MTosport behind power curve no climb available
2008 09-May G-CEUI MTo3 student takeoff behind power curve
2011 05-Jun G-CGGV MTosport lack of climb at max AUW & gust
2011 08-Feb G-CGIX MTosport blade flap on takeoff rotor hit tail.
2011 23-Apr G-CGEW MTosport student pulled back stick with insufficient Rotor RPM rotor hit tail.
2015 31-Jul G-CLDS calidus behind power curve during short field take off hereford
2014 05-Mar G-RDNY Cavalon student take off incorrect technique
2013 28-Dec G-PAFF MTosport low rotor RPM on take off chopping the tail
2012 29-Dec G-ETOJ calidus over rotation on take off rotor hit runway
2011 07-Jul G-RSMT MTo3 aircraft would not climb after takeoff (power curve)
2015 08-Apr G-CPCP Calidus rotor blade hit tail pre take off
2016 28-Sep G-CFVG MTosport rollover during takeoff
2016 28-Sep G-CFVG MTosport roll over on takeoff northreps
2011 03-Feb G-CGRT Magni M24 orion early take off rotor not up to speed gust
Last edited by SandL; 28th May 2017 at 01:07.
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I think it is important to note that the list is NOT a list of fatal accidents or even a list of accidents where someone was hurt.
I accept that a gyro is more prone to ground and T/O incidents that lead to damage, sometimes extensive that you would not see in the fixed wing environment.
If I understand your point, you are saying that these incidents are avoidable and are solely due to poor training across the board in the UK. You have also hinted that the BRA are aware there's a problem but due to connections between the board and TOs they won't act.
I can only say that my personal experience differs. I think instruction in the UK is to a very high standard. I also believe that some incidents of the type described are inevitable - just like you get dynamic roll over in helis, engine failures in 2-stroke microlights, and ground loops in tail-wheel a/c. You have to take into account the nature of the beast.
Mark
I accept that a gyro is more prone to ground and T/O incidents that lead to damage, sometimes extensive that you would not see in the fixed wing environment.
If I understand your point, you are saying that these incidents are avoidable and are solely due to poor training across the board in the UK. You have also hinted that the BRA are aware there's a problem but due to connections between the board and TOs they won't act.
I can only say that my personal experience differs. I think instruction in the UK is to a very high standard. I also believe that some incidents of the type described are inevitable - just like you get dynamic roll over in helis, engine failures in 2-stroke microlights, and ground loops in tail-wheel a/c. You have to take into account the nature of the beast.
Mark
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I did not say they were "solely due to poor training across the board"
I am keen on preventing accidents fatal or not can be just a whisper away
I am no longer a member of the BRA, I do not know the current board, I mentoined that in the past the board had business interests in promoting the new 2 seat machines.
I ask the question is this accident rate acceptable, if not what do you suggest to reduce it.?
I do not dispute that we all make mistakes, I have had 2 stroke engine failures in my gyro, I have been trained in field landings, I will not get a field landing right every time, with this in mind I cointinue self training in field selection. I have been trained for that emergengy and so far so good (am I courting danger with this post !) PPO appears to have almost dissapeard (except for the Dubai accident, but there were other issues involved in that) I suggest that PPO has been trained out of the system and that the modern gyros are more stable that the older ones (a 2 pronged approach).
so apart from training there could be an abort light illuminated when airspeed does not match rotor speed. or for drag curve situations where airspeed does not match engine RPM. all the electronics are there today, what harm will it do ?. would those lights have prevented accidents along with more focused training.maybe ?. could a flapping simulator be built ? (probably not) could more fucus be put on placeing a student in a high drag high power situation., many times over (at height) with out warning when handing control to the student. ?
But first it would have to be recognised that a problem exists. If they are regarded as just another accident nothing will change and people are happy with them being just another accident. this is not generally the philosophy of safe aircraft operation. 16 accidents in 8 years is 2 per year on average, when will the next one be and will there be a serious injury or written off machine ?.
I agree training is a high standard in the UK but that does not eliminate the opertunity for additional focus in certain areas to prevent accidents , what do you suggest.
I am keen on preventing accidents fatal or not can be just a whisper away
I am no longer a member of the BRA, I do not know the current board, I mentoined that in the past the board had business interests in promoting the new 2 seat machines.
I ask the question is this accident rate acceptable, if not what do you suggest to reduce it.?
I do not dispute that we all make mistakes, I have had 2 stroke engine failures in my gyro, I have been trained in field landings, I will not get a field landing right every time, with this in mind I cointinue self training in field selection. I have been trained for that emergengy and so far so good (am I courting danger with this post !) PPO appears to have almost dissapeard (except for the Dubai accident, but there were other issues involved in that) I suggest that PPO has been trained out of the system and that the modern gyros are more stable that the older ones (a 2 pronged approach).
so apart from training there could be an abort light illuminated when airspeed does not match rotor speed. or for drag curve situations where airspeed does not match engine RPM. all the electronics are there today, what harm will it do ?. would those lights have prevented accidents along with more focused training.maybe ?. could a flapping simulator be built ? (probably not) could more fucus be put on placeing a student in a high drag high power situation., many times over (at height) with out warning when handing control to the student. ?
But first it would have to be recognised that a problem exists. If they are regarded as just another accident nothing will change and people are happy with them being just another accident. this is not generally the philosophy of safe aircraft operation. 16 accidents in 8 years is 2 per year on average, when will the next one be and will there be a serious injury or written off machine ?.
I agree training is a high standard in the UK but that does not eliminate the opertunity for additional focus in certain areas to prevent accidents , what do you suggest.
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I make it 16 take off incidents involving the new generation of gyros
MT, Calidus M24, Cavalon etc from 2008-2016 some of which would be as you describe a "training accident" but not all. I am sure that like you I am keen to see a reduction in accidents, I think the questions are is this a pattern and if so what can be done about it ? maybe you have some suggestions
I believe the following data is acurate, if not please correct me, If I am wrong I apologise. I simply typed these registrations into the internet. Knowing that gyros have had a doubtful safety record in the past I have spent considerable time resurching as many gyro accident records as I can find so I can learn from others and hopefully stay safe myself . (sorry the data is not easy to read I simply copied it from my accident exel spread sheet) my total data (not shown here) records 38 reported accidents involving the new factory built 2 seats machines in the UK. As you say it's the detail behind the accidents that count of the 38 2 can be dismissed immediately (the very sad medical emergency and the hunt sab accidents) that leaves 36 accidents in total I believe aggh plus 1 more in northern Ireland this week. Every owner of a permit machine has to be an LAA member inorder to get a permit
2014 01-Nov G-JBRE MT03 blades contacted prop on take off (flapping) LACK OF TRAINING
2013 10-Apr G-CGMG Calidus blades hammering during take off
2010 LACK OF TRAINING 01-Nov G-CGGW MTosport behind power curve no climb available LACK OF TRAINING
2008 09-May G-CEUI MTo3 student takeoff behind power curve LACK OF TRAINING
2011 05-Jun G-CGGV MTosport lack of climb at max AUW & gust LACK OF TRAINING
2011 08-Feb G-CGIX MTosport blade flap on takeoff rotor hit tail. LACK OF TRAINING
2011 23-Apr G-CGEW MTosport student pulled back stick with LACK OF TRAININGinsufficient Rotor RPM rotor hit tail. LACK OF TRAINING
2015 31-Jul G-CLDS calidus behind power curve during short field take off hereford LACK OF TRAINING
2014 05-Mar G-RDNY Cavalon student take off incorrect technique
2013 LACK OF TRAINING28-Dec G-PAFF MTosport low rotor RPM on take off chopping the tail LACK OF TRAINING
2012 29-Dec G-ETOJ calidus over rotation on take off rotor hit runway LACK OF TRAINING
2011 07-Jul G-RSMT MTo3 aircraft would not climb after takeoff (power curve) LACK OF TRAINING
2015 08-Apr G-CPCP Calidus rotor blade hit tail pre take off LACK OF TRAINING
2016 28-Sep G-CFVG MTosport rollover during takeoff LACK OF TRAINING
2016 28-Sep G-CFVG MTosport roll over on takeoff northreps LACK OF TRAINING
2011 03-Feb G-CGRT Magni M24 orion early take off rotor not up to speed gust
MT, Calidus M24, Cavalon etc from 2008-2016 some of which would be as you describe a "training accident" but not all. I am sure that like you I am keen to see a reduction in accidents, I think the questions are is this a pattern and if so what can be done about it ? maybe you have some suggestions
I believe the following data is acurate, if not please correct me, If I am wrong I apologise. I simply typed these registrations into the internet. Knowing that gyros have had a doubtful safety record in the past I have spent considerable time resurching as many gyro accident records as I can find so I can learn from others and hopefully stay safe myself . (sorry the data is not easy to read I simply copied it from my accident exel spread sheet) my total data (not shown here) records 38 reported accidents involving the new factory built 2 seats machines in the UK. As you say it's the detail behind the accidents that count of the 38 2 can be dismissed immediately (the very sad medical emergency and the hunt sab accidents) that leaves 36 accidents in total I believe aggh plus 1 more in northern Ireland this week. Every owner of a permit machine has to be an LAA member inorder to get a permit
2014 01-Nov G-JBRE MT03 blades contacted prop on take off (flapping) LACK OF TRAINING
2013 10-Apr G-CGMG Calidus blades hammering during take off
2010 LACK OF TRAINING 01-Nov G-CGGW MTosport behind power curve no climb available LACK OF TRAINING
2008 09-May G-CEUI MTo3 student takeoff behind power curve LACK OF TRAINING
2011 05-Jun G-CGGV MTosport lack of climb at max AUW & gust LACK OF TRAINING
2011 08-Feb G-CGIX MTosport blade flap on takeoff rotor hit tail. LACK OF TRAINING
2011 23-Apr G-CGEW MTosport student pulled back stick with LACK OF TRAININGinsufficient Rotor RPM rotor hit tail. LACK OF TRAINING
2015 31-Jul G-CLDS calidus behind power curve during short field take off hereford LACK OF TRAINING
2014 05-Mar G-RDNY Cavalon student take off incorrect technique
2013 LACK OF TRAINING28-Dec G-PAFF MTosport low rotor RPM on take off chopping the tail LACK OF TRAINING
2012 29-Dec G-ETOJ calidus over rotation on take off rotor hit runway LACK OF TRAINING
2011 07-Jul G-RSMT MTo3 aircraft would not climb after takeoff (power curve) LACK OF TRAINING
2015 08-Apr G-CPCP Calidus rotor blade hit tail pre take off LACK OF TRAINING
2016 28-Sep G-CFVG MTosport rollover during takeoff LACK OF TRAINING
2016 28-Sep G-CFVG MTosport roll over on takeoff northreps LACK OF TRAINING
2011 03-Feb G-CGRT Magni M24 orion early take off rotor not up to speed gust
And one other very important thing is : tail boom curved on most of the new Gyro = early take off but, if you don't have enough RPM rotor...it's totally wrong... How many young student ( or young pilot) can manage that ?
Old school : tail straight, no way to put the stick back early : the tail wheel hit the ground...
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Bob cat you are talking design , I think the M24 has a straight keel also I perform a soft field take off on most occasions as I fly from a rough grass strip, to I lift off early without going into full wheel balance, I lift off right on the bottom of the drag curve then hold it down so gain speed, again training taught me how, why and when to use this technique.
Dah Dah do you agree a problem exists, ? do you want to lobby the LAA/BRA/CAA to help prevent these accidents ?
are you a member of the BRA? and do you think the BRA is interested in highlighting this issue ... or is it a non issue and considered acceptable ?
has training changed ? has design improved ? has the BRA carried out any accident anaylsis ?
I used to be a member about 10 years ago then did not renew as I found the organisation did not represent me. I re-joined about 3 years ago and was again very dissapointed so left.
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Dah Dah do you agree a problem exists, ? do you want to lobby the LAA/BRA/CAA to help prevent these accidents ?
are you a member of the BRA? and do you think the BRA is interested in highlighting this issue ... or is it a non issue and considered acceptable ?
has training changed ? has design improved ? has the BRA carried out any accident anaylsis ?
I used to be a member about 10 years ago then did not renew as I found the organisation did not represent me. I re-joined about 3 years ago and was again very dissapointed so left.
.
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Any accident is an accident too many, and I don't know anyone involved in gyroplanes who is sanguine about accidents, whatever the rate.
I also know that anyone who thinks that single-seat pilots have some sort of exclusive claim to ninja-type rotor management skills could never have taken a look at the pile of bent rotor blades round the back of the hangar at Henstridge and/or Rissington. The big difference is/was that single-seat gyros rarely carry hull insurance so it's generally easier just to sweep-up and carry on rather than make a fuss and report.
Here's a single-seat guy showing us all how it should be done:
https://assets.publishing.service.go...BTTD_03-96.pdf
Now that the stone-throwing is done with .......
It's too easy to go around shouting "lack of training". "Brain fart" would be a more appropriate description for the root cause of most of the listed accidents, with "lack of currency/recency" a contributing factor in some. As long as we have human beings in the mix then things will go wrong.
What has been done to try and fix it? Well, quite a bit actually. The CAA worked with the BRA and the industry to produce a very good "handling sense" leaflet:
https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/20120816HSL04.pdf
The requirement for an "instructor hour" every 24 months has added an opportunity to try and ensure ensure that pilots' skills haven't atrophied.
The format of the general flying test has also been amended to include an oral element, with questions on aircraft performance an integral part.
Is it enough? I'm sure that more could be done, and will be as ways can be found to do it.
Let's not forget that back in the "good old days" there were about 40 homebuilt gyroplanes operating in the UK and it was unusual for a year to pass without a fatal accident.
BOBAKAT - I can't think of a single accident in the UK where the curved tail boom played a significant role.
I also know that anyone who thinks that single-seat pilots have some sort of exclusive claim to ninja-type rotor management skills could never have taken a look at the pile of bent rotor blades round the back of the hangar at Henstridge and/or Rissington. The big difference is/was that single-seat gyros rarely carry hull insurance so it's generally easier just to sweep-up and carry on rather than make a fuss and report.
Here's a single-seat guy showing us all how it should be done:
https://assets.publishing.service.go...BTTD_03-96.pdf
Now that the stone-throwing is done with .......
It's too easy to go around shouting "lack of training". "Brain fart" would be a more appropriate description for the root cause of most of the listed accidents, with "lack of currency/recency" a contributing factor in some. As long as we have human beings in the mix then things will go wrong.
What has been done to try and fix it? Well, quite a bit actually. The CAA worked with the BRA and the industry to produce a very good "handling sense" leaflet:
https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/20120816HSL04.pdf
The requirement for an "instructor hour" every 24 months has added an opportunity to try and ensure ensure that pilots' skills haven't atrophied.
The format of the general flying test has also been amended to include an oral element, with questions on aircraft performance an integral part.
Is it enough? I'm sure that more could be done, and will be as ways can be found to do it.
Let's not forget that back in the "good old days" there were about 40 homebuilt gyroplanes operating in the UK and it was unusual for a year to pass without a fatal accident.
BOBAKAT - I can't think of a single accident in the UK where the curved tail boom played a significant role.
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[QUOTE
BOBAKAT - I can't think of a single accident in the UK where the curved tail boom played a significant role.[/QUOTE]
I don't talk for only UK
The biggest fault of the students is to believe that when they have speed rolling, they will take off faster if they pull the stick back ...
With the right tail, you can not! You have to have the Rotor RPM to take off ... In reality, you can, but you have the tail wheel that warns you that it touches the ground right away if you do not have the RPM for takeoff ... .
The curved tails let you pull the stick back without warning you, even if you do not have the RPM to take off.
Same for landing :
With curved tail, you can landing like an helicopter if you want... But, you have to manage very precisely your rate of descent...if you don't want to bump the ground too hard...
With a straight tail, you have to make a nice "arrondi" to land smoothly.... if not...The tail warn you....
But that is not the only cause of accident. Fast taxiing is, IMHO the second cause....
IN UK and other country ....
BOBAKAT - I can't think of a single accident in the UK where the curved tail boom played a significant role.[/QUOTE]
I don't talk for only UK
The biggest fault of the students is to believe that when they have speed rolling, they will take off faster if they pull the stick back ...With the right tail, you can not! You have to have the Rotor RPM to take off ... In reality, you can, but you have the tail wheel that warns you that it touches the ground right away if you do not have the RPM for takeoff ... .
The curved tails let you pull the stick back without warning you, even if you do not have the RPM to take off.
Same for landing :
With curved tail, you can landing like an helicopter if you want... But, you have to manage very precisely your rate of descent...if you don't want to bump the ground too hard...
With a straight tail, you have to make a nice "arrondi" to land smoothly.... if not...The tail warn you....
But that is not the only cause of accident. Fast taxiing is, IMHO the second cause....
IN UK and other country ....