Missing Twin Squirrel: Wales/Ireland
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Thanks for your comments
I suppose I am interested, I ride a ZZR1400 motorbike, friends have been in accidents and unfortunately some killed. As a bike rider I can look at the junction, or the aftermath or know the rider and make a pretty educated guess as to what went wrong. I wouldn't of gone that fast on that bend, or that car pulled out etc etc
With this it is the total vacuum of knowledge, I can't 'best guess' what happened and think 'silly mistake, but we all make them', 'you deliberately flew into that knowing a and b, i wouldnt of done it but I see your point' etc etc
As for the internet forum, we are all them, I'm on a bike one, we have the same on that. Thanks for your kind words, I'll sign up for the AAIB updates.
I wont take up anymore of your time - it just the whole - I know this man, he is safe, he has 1000's of hours of flight time, he employs steel erectors who can be bolshie and difficult and can stand his ground, if he didnt want to go he wouldnt of gone, wife nagging or not (as it happens Ruth wasn't like that) - something made him clip the top of that hill, obviously IMC - you dont fly deliberately into a hill you can see - insufficient MSA - again you dont deliberately fly around in hills with your MSA less than the highest one IMC.
Did he think he'd cleared it start descending -
Its just such a waste, a small miscalculation, it looks OK to fly, autopilot set to wrong MSA, a too short glance or incorrect program of nav
Thanks for indulging me, and its been good to read some of your insights
Fly safe
I suppose I am interested, I ride a ZZR1400 motorbike, friends have been in accidents and unfortunately some killed. As a bike rider I can look at the junction, or the aftermath or know the rider and make a pretty educated guess as to what went wrong. I wouldn't of gone that fast on that bend, or that car pulled out etc etc
With this it is the total vacuum of knowledge, I can't 'best guess' what happened and think 'silly mistake, but we all make them', 'you deliberately flew into that knowing a and b, i wouldnt of done it but I see your point' etc etc
As for the internet forum, we are all them, I'm on a bike one, we have the same on that. Thanks for your kind words, I'll sign up for the AAIB updates.
I wont take up anymore of your time - it just the whole - I know this man, he is safe, he has 1000's of hours of flight time, he employs steel erectors who can be bolshie and difficult and can stand his ground, if he didnt want to go he wouldnt of gone, wife nagging or not (as it happens Ruth wasn't like that) - something made him clip the top of that hill, obviously IMC - you dont fly deliberately into a hill you can see - insufficient MSA - again you dont deliberately fly around in hills with your MSA less than the highest one IMC.
Did he think he'd cleared it start descending -
Its just such a waste, a small miscalculation, it looks OK to fly, autopilot set to wrong MSA, a too short glance or incorrect program of nav
Thanks for indulging me, and its been good to read some of your insights
Fly safe
Well said Whirly.
Kawa my deepest sympathy for the loss of your friends.
It's a shame that some on these threads loose sight of the fact that the people they are criticsing are just like them with families and friends who care.
As it has been said by others they didn't set out to die.
c
Kawa my deepest sympathy for the loss of your friends.
It's a shame that some on these threads loose sight of the fact that the people they are criticsing are just like them with families and friends who care.
As it has been said by others they didn't set out to die.
c
Flying in mountains in reduced visibility can make it difficult to judge whether you are going to clear the ridge line, or not. Given the crash was close to the top of the mountain, it's quite possible he may have thought he was OK, until it was too late. But if you stick to the weather rules for visual flight then you have adequate visual cues for judging height when crossing a ridge line.
There is an optical illusion where you think there is clearance between the cloud base and the ridge line, but in reality the clouds go down to the tree tops on rising terrain. You must be able to clearly see the valley on the other side of the ridge before attempting to cross. Crossing the ridge at an oblique angle is a safer option than flying directly at it, gives you more of an opportunity to turn away at the last moment if you miss judge it.
Last edited by gulliBell; 13th Apr 2017 at 08:00.
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I think we need to temper the single pilot PPL(H) VFR debate a little. We don't know the pilot's background yet. While a businessman and flying PPL he may well have had significant experience, military training, IFR etc - we don't know yet. And also - even though I agree everything points to a weather related incident assumptions can be dangerous. There are many businessmen pilots (and commercial pilots) who take unnecessary risks - and likewise many who do not
Sorry about your friend
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
Can you point to a situation when this actually occurred? Even when HRH was flying SAR there was never any harassment or intrusion from news helicopters.
Naive because the issue is not to do with interference it is to do with the value of exploiting information.
Imagine the following scenario.
Person A, looking at his tablet notices interesting activity involving SAR assets.
They see it is close to them so wander up the local hill with their radio scanner.
Listening in they find the comms and over hear the casualty has serious head injuries. The subsequent transmissions contain further medical and casualty details.
Person A provides info to a website, who know that breaking news creates clicks, and clicks create money, and have no qualms about publishing.
Consequence one : NoK find out their loved one's condition from the internet.
Consequence two: The SAR agency is scrutinised to establish if they took all reasonable precautions to protect personal information. Recommendations are made for future.
There are other scenarios involving lawyers and "experts". I won't even go in to that waste of everyone's time.
End result SAR agency is careful over any broadcast information.
I don't know if the above is the case here, but the general public don't need to know these minute by minute movements of SAR assets, so why choose to make it available? Those that need the info get the info. The rest, at best, is voyeurism.
That seems the extremes of paranoia and supposes that the rescue is in an easily accessible location - it would be much easier to do with an air ambulance rather than a SAR aircraft.
The simple answer is secure comms - airwave can't be picked up on scanners and any decent wireless aircraft to crew comms shouldn't be either. Names should never be mentioned over the air either so your scenario isn't likely at all.
Knowing where a SAR aircraft is doesn't compromise anything - the public pay for it so why shouldn't they have access to such information unless there really is something to hide.
The simple answer is secure comms - airwave can't be picked up on scanners and any decent wireless aircraft to crew comms shouldn't be either. Names should never be mentioned over the air either so your scenario isn't likely at all.
Knowing where a SAR aircraft is doesn't compromise anything - the public pay for it so why shouldn't they have access to such information unless there really is something to hide.
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Secure comms as much as possible was also a recommendation. But it requires the other end to have the same. That's not always an option. TETRA is not available to most people and so sometimes you have to resort to standard comms, TETRA also doesn't have perfect coverage. Analogue vs digital is a debate not to be had here as the thread may have drifted far enough already.
Tight protocol is another, but again not everyone is part of the SAR organisation.
Accessibility is only a matter of LOS at any particular moment.
I pay for police, fire, ambulance, refuse collection ... I have no desire to track them. As I say, those that need to can, the rest is voyeurism. To think they "may be hiding something" now that is extreme paranoia.
The scenarios are not hypothetical, so your opinion of the likelihood is of no relevance. Whether UK SAR considered them I have no idea. I was simply offering my view that other SAR operators have answering a specific question earlier in the thread.
Tight protocol is another, but again not everyone is part of the SAR organisation.
Accessibility is only a matter of LOS at any particular moment.
I pay for police, fire, ambulance, refuse collection ... I have no desire to track them. As I say, those that need to can, the rest is voyeurism. To think they "may be hiding something" now that is extreme paranoia.
The scenarios are not hypothetical, so your opinion of the likelihood is of no relevance. Whether UK SAR considered them I have no idea. I was simply offering my view that other SAR operators have answering a specific question earlier in the thread.
Thread Starter
A few years ago I was spending the day at ARCC Kinloss and I had a conversation about comms with the duty controller. This was a former SAR Force SK pilot and SH Chinook pilot. "I'm not interested in talk-groups and all that stuff. I just want to press the button and talk and everyone understands what's going on." 
What I take from that is that situational awareness is a valued commodity in SAR scenarios and that there are enough complicated things in helicopter cockpits already: especially when flying around near big bits of rock.
The radio discipline that Crab referred to is already instilled into most SAR pilots and at Kintail MRT it also features in the radio aide memoire that I encourage our folks to carry.
General MRT comms is in the process of moving from a widely-used radio band and during the next three or four years can be expected to partly or wholly move to digital VHF emissions. Airwave is history and the first major ESN migrations are programmed for summer/autumn 2018. ESN and other 4G/LTE rollouts will also provide improved opportunities for secure comms in some areas and satellite phones are in use by some teams and by SAR aircraft.
There is also the factor that these 1000m propagation barriers have a tendency to make it difficult for anyone at all to receive messages, so good luck with your Maplin-made-in-china scanner.
What I take from that is that situational awareness is a valued commodity in SAR scenarios and that there are enough complicated things in helicopter cockpits already: especially when flying around near big bits of rock.
The radio discipline that Crab referred to is already instilled into most SAR pilots and at Kintail MRT it also features in the radio aide memoire that I encourage our folks to carry.
General MRT comms is in the process of moving from a widely-used radio band and during the next three or four years can be expected to partly or wholly move to digital VHF emissions. Airwave is history and the first major ESN migrations are programmed for summer/autumn 2018. ESN and other 4G/LTE rollouts will also provide improved opportunities for secure comms in some areas and satellite phones are in use by some teams and by SAR aircraft.
There is also the factor that these 1000m propagation barriers have a tendency to make it difficult for anyone at all to receive messages, so good luck with your Maplin-made-in-china scanner.
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Admitting his son was a fishhead and now this post on http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/593...ml#post9740508 confirms that Jay is indeed our old pal 'Ye Olde Pilot'
Thread Starter
Here's the real world.
If you were good at physics at school and understood radio propagation, would you end up as a Home Office minister or a Chief Constable? No.
People flying HEMS or SAR helicopters in these situations have the first priority of not turning into red mince on a piece of rock themselves. Everybody knows the issues about privacy and confidentiality and works their messages around it. Secure comms with fancy kit comes way way down the list of priorities. I know of at least one aircraft spec that has some comms problems because the radios fitted are ludicrously complicated and deserving of a dedicated radio operator. Like the Lady said "I'm not interested in talk-groups and all that stuff. I just want to press the button and talk and everyone understands what's going on."
The foot-soldiers on the ground are on the same page as the Lady above who just wants to press the button and talk. They are often wet and cold and more interested the patient's vital signs than the correct talkgroup or waiting for a satellite call to go through.
For every incident in wild or mountainous country that has Airwave coverage, there are several that have not. We currently have no idea how good ESN will be when it replaces Airwave or what access will be available to groups like MRT, CRS, Red Cross and so on. I believe (uncorroborated) that the basis for providing ESN coverage is different from that used for Airwave coverage but I do not expect coverage in wild and mountainous terrain to be substantially different.
If an aircraft has Airwave coverage above an incident, that has no relevance to the situation on the ground. If they cannot advance collaboration with those at the scene and cannot advance air safety and navigation then guess how much use it is at that point? Having said that, HEMS are far more likely to be using it since their controllers and the other ambulance assets are using it. In a SAR aircraft, Airwave is for ordering takeaways at the end of a long tiring shift. (And for updating hospital staff about patient condition.)
Open net VHF belonging to MRT and others similar groups are inevitably the back-up comms for the rest of the emergency services when a major incident is in wild and mountainous country or when their secure systems collapse under intense operational pressure.
If you were good at physics at school and understood radio propagation, would you end up as a Home Office minister or a Chief Constable? No.
People flying HEMS or SAR helicopters in these situations have the first priority of not turning into red mince on a piece of rock themselves. Everybody knows the issues about privacy and confidentiality and works their messages around it. Secure comms with fancy kit comes way way down the list of priorities. I know of at least one aircraft spec that has some comms problems because the radios fitted are ludicrously complicated and deserving of a dedicated radio operator. Like the Lady said "I'm not interested in talk-groups and all that stuff. I just want to press the button and talk and everyone understands what's going on."
The foot-soldiers on the ground are on the same page as the Lady above who just wants to press the button and talk. They are often wet and cold and more interested the patient's vital signs than the correct talkgroup or waiting for a satellite call to go through.
For every incident in wild or mountainous country that has Airwave coverage, there are several that have not. We currently have no idea how good ESN will be when it replaces Airwave or what access will be available to groups like MRT, CRS, Red Cross and so on. I believe (uncorroborated) that the basis for providing ESN coverage is different from that used for Airwave coverage but I do not expect coverage in wild and mountainous terrain to be substantially different.
If an aircraft has Airwave coverage above an incident, that has no relevance to the situation on the ground. If they cannot advance collaboration with those at the scene and cannot advance air safety and navigation then guess how much use it is at that point? Having said that, HEMS are far more likely to be using it since their controllers and the other ambulance assets are using it. In a SAR aircraft, Airwave is for ordering takeaways at the end of a long tiring shift. (And for updating hospital staff about patient condition.)
Open net VHF belonging to MRT and others similar groups are inevitably the back-up comms for the rest of the emergency services when a major incident is in wild and mountainous country or when their secure systems collapse under intense operational pressure.
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Jim, all I answered a very specific question regarding why the SAR aircraft would not have its position forwarded into the public domain.
I answered it privately as it seems to have no relevance to the main point of this thread.
The question came up again, so I answered publicly.
I cannot comment on UK. But I know SAR agencies have required their FF and AIS positions to be prevented from being forwarded, as much as possible, into the public domain. I have explained why.
I've given my answer, based on my knowledge. I don't believe it really merits further discussion. It doesn't progress this thread any further.
I answered it privately as it seems to have no relevance to the main point of this thread.
The question came up again, so I answered publicly.
I cannot comment on UK. But I know SAR agencies have required their FF and AIS positions to be prevented from being forwarded, as much as possible, into the public domain. I have explained why.
I've given my answer, based on my knowledge. I don't believe it really merits further discussion. It doesn't progress this thread any further.
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From an MRT perspective - teams do have access to ADSB data from Air Ambulance and SAR Helicopters via various sources - firstly from a network of receivers set up by various teams and also via a feed from an online aircraft watchers database that normally block such info to other subscribers.
Airwave is very much with us for a fair while with the delayed roll out of ESN. ESN coverage will be worse than Airwave - as the contract for sparsely populated areas was dropped from the requirement. At present there is Airwave in several areas with no cell coverage - ESN will not cover this.
The MRT VHF bands are migrating shortly to new bands due to the requirement to release bandwidth for marine ship-ship channels. Digital is rolling out but as yet this is not on a national basis but done by particular teams due to their own requirements. The current standard is analogue and likely to remain so for some time.
Airwave is very much with us for a fair while with the delayed roll out of ESN. ESN coverage will be worse than Airwave - as the contract for sparsely populated areas was dropped from the requirement. At present there is Airwave in several areas with no cell coverage - ESN will not cover this.
The MRT VHF bands are migrating shortly to new bands due to the requirement to release bandwidth for marine ship-ship channels. Digital is rolling out but as yet this is not on a national basis but done by particular teams due to their own requirements. The current standard is analogue and likely to remain so for some time.
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Jimf671;
If you were good at physics at school and understood radio propagation, would you end up as a Home Office minister or a Chief Constable? No.
If you were good at physics at school and understood radio propagation, would you end up as a Home Office minister or a Chief Constable? No.
LMGTFY
Paul West QPM held the position of Chief Constable (West Mercia Police) from 2003 until 2011. Paul started his police career in 1979 when he joined the Durham Constabulary after completing a physics degree at Oxford University.
Surrey's new temporary Chief Constable Nick Ephgrave. He’s the carefully-spoken former physicist who spent the 90s hunting IRA terrorists and went on to take down the brutal murderers of Damilola Taylor.
On 4 November 1996 Ronnie Flanagan took up his post as Chief Constable of the RUC, one of the most powerful posts occupied by an unelected official in either Ireland or the United Kingdom.In 1970 Ronnie Flanagan joined the RUC while still at Queen's University where he was studying physics.
Alan McQuillan was Acting Deputy Chief Constable in PSNI until 2003. He holds a BSC (Hons) Degree in Physics from Queen’s University, Belfast.
Assistant Chief Constable (Durham Constabulary) Dave Orford
After growing up in County Durham, Dave attended Manchester University gaining a degree in physics before being commissioned into the Royal Engineers.
OK, so a few assistants there
Surrey's new temporary Chief Constable Nick Ephgrave. He’s the carefully-spoken former physicist who spent the 90s hunting IRA terrorists and went on to take down the brutal murderers of Damilola Taylor.
On 4 November 1996 Ronnie Flanagan took up his post as Chief Constable of the RUC, one of the most powerful posts occupied by an unelected official in either Ireland or the United Kingdom.In 1970 Ronnie Flanagan joined the RUC while still at Queen's University where he was studying physics.
Alan McQuillan was Acting Deputy Chief Constable in PSNI until 2003. He holds a BSC (Hons) Degree in Physics from Queen’s University, Belfast.
Assistant Chief Constable (Durham Constabulary) Dave Orford
After growing up in County Durham, Dave attended Manchester University gaining a degree in physics before being commissioned into the Royal Engineers.
OK, so a few assistants there
Members of the UK Parliament with science and technology degrees in 2015
So with help from twitter, the list of MPs with science degrees looks something like this (will update as needed):
Heidi Allen MP for South Cambridgeshire (BSc in Astrophysics)
Steve Baker MP for Wycombe (BSc Aerospace Engineering, MSc Computer Science)
Gavin Barwell MP for Croydon Central (BA Natural Sciences)
Margaret Beckett MP for Derby South (BSc Metallurgy)
Karen Bradley MP for Staffordshire Moorlands (BSc Mathematics)
Tom Brake MP for Carshalton and Wallington (BSc Physics)
Julian Brazier MP for Canterbury (BA Mathematics)
Andrew Bridgen MP for North West Leicestershire (BSc Genetics)
Alan Brown MP for Kilmarnock (BSc Civil Engineering)
Therese Coffey MP for Suffolk Coastal (BSc & PhD Chemistry)
David Davis MP for Haltemprice & Howden (BSc Computer Science)
Robert Flello MP for Stoke-on-Trent South (BSc Chemistry)
Liam Fox MP for North Somerset (Bachelor of Medicine)
Mark Hendrick MP for Central Lancashire (BSc Eletrical Engineering)
Carol Monaghan MP for Glasgow North West (BSc Physics)
Liz McInnes MP for Heywood & Middleton (BSc Biochemistry)
Chi Onwurah MP for Newcastle Central (BEng Electrical Engineering)
Chris Philp MP for Croydon South (BSc Physics)
Alok Sharma MP for Reading West (BSc Physics & Electronics)
Alec Shelbrooke MP for Elmet & Rothwell (BEng Mechanical Engineering)
Graham Stringer MP for Blackley (BSc Chemistry)
Stephen Timms MP for East Ham (MA Mathematics)
Philippa Whitford MP for Ayrshire Central (Bachelor of Medicine)
Sarah Wollaston MP for Totnes (Bachelor of Medicine)
Valerie Vaz MP for Walsall South (BSc Biochemistry)
Nadhim Zahawi MP for Stratford-on-Avon (BSc Chemical Engineering)
So with help from twitter, the list of MPs with science degrees looks something like this (will update as needed):
Heidi Allen MP for South Cambridgeshire (BSc in Astrophysics)
Steve Baker MP for Wycombe (BSc Aerospace Engineering, MSc Computer Science)
Gavin Barwell MP for Croydon Central (BA Natural Sciences)
Margaret Beckett MP for Derby South (BSc Metallurgy)
Karen Bradley MP for Staffordshire Moorlands (BSc Mathematics)
Tom Brake MP for Carshalton and Wallington (BSc Physics)
Julian Brazier MP for Canterbury (BA Mathematics)
Andrew Bridgen MP for North West Leicestershire (BSc Genetics)
Alan Brown MP for Kilmarnock (BSc Civil Engineering)
Therese Coffey MP for Suffolk Coastal (BSc & PhD Chemistry)
David Davis MP for Haltemprice & Howden (BSc Computer Science)
Robert Flello MP for Stoke-on-Trent South (BSc Chemistry)
Liam Fox MP for North Somerset (Bachelor of Medicine)
Mark Hendrick MP for Central Lancashire (BSc Eletrical Engineering)
Carol Monaghan MP for Glasgow North West (BSc Physics)
Liz McInnes MP for Heywood & Middleton (BSc Biochemistry)
Chi Onwurah MP for Newcastle Central (BEng Electrical Engineering)
Chris Philp MP for Croydon South (BSc Physics)
Alok Sharma MP for Reading West (BSc Physics & Electronics)
Alec Shelbrooke MP for Elmet & Rothwell (BEng Mechanical Engineering)
Graham Stringer MP for Blackley (BSc Chemistry)
Stephen Timms MP for East Ham (MA Mathematics)
Philippa Whitford MP for Ayrshire Central (Bachelor of Medicine)
Sarah Wollaston MP for Totnes (Bachelor of Medicine)
Valerie Vaz MP for Walsall South (BSc Biochemistry)
Nadhim Zahawi MP for Stratford-on-Avon (BSc Chemical Engineering)
Admitting his son was a fishhead and now this post on http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/593...ml#post9740508 confirms that Jay is indeed our old pal 'Ye Olde Pilot'
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Hi Kawa,
First of all condolences on your loss.
I cannot help feeling that some of the criticism here has been particularly harsh, especially when counterpointed with the parallel thread where a fully equipped (bar perhaps NVG) S92 with a crew of four impacted terrain.
Does the twin squirrel have any form of CVR? Or may this pilot suffer in the way that the crew of ZD576 were damned by the absence of evidence?
EG
First of all condolences on your loss.
I wont take up anymore of your time - it just the whole - I know this man, he is safe, he has 1000's of hours of flight time, he employs steel erectors who can be bolshie and difficult and can stand his ground, if he didnt want to go he wouldnt of gone, wife nagging or not (as it happens Ruth wasn't like that) - something made him clip the top of that hill, obviously IMC - you dont fly deliberately into a hill you can see - insufficient MSA - again you dont deliberately fly around in hills with your MSA less than the highest one IMC.
I cannot help feeling that some of the criticism here has been particularly harsh, especially when counterpointed with the parallel thread where a fully equipped (bar perhaps NVG) S92 with a crew of four impacted terrain.
Does the twin squirrel have any form of CVR? Or may this pilot suffer in the way that the crew of ZD576 were damned by the absence of evidence?
EG
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Hi Kawa,
First of all condolences on your loss.
I cannot help feeling that some of the criticism here has been particularly harsh, especially when counterpointed with the parallel thread where a fully equipped (bar perhaps NVG) S92 with a crew of four impacted terrain.
Does the twin squirrel have any form of CVR? Or may this pilot suffer in the way that the crew of ZD576 were damned by the absence of evidence?
EG
First of all condolences on your loss.
I cannot help feeling that some of the criticism here has been particularly harsh, especially when counterpointed with the parallel thread where a fully equipped (bar perhaps NVG) S92 with a crew of four impacted terrain.
Does the twin squirrel have any form of CVR? Or may this pilot suffer in the way that the crew of ZD576 were damned by the absence of evidence?
EG
All theories are purely that at this stage but I think ZD576 is a different issue.
Imagine a car on a dual carriageway approaching a roundabout. It's February OAT 1degC, it's raining. The car impacts a tree on said roundabout. What is the likely cause? Yes it could have been a tyre blow out or brake failure but in all probability it was black ice. Can we be certain.. no but logically speaking????
Now to liken it to 476 you would have to factor in that the particular type of car had questions over the accelerator linkage. Factoring this into the equation would make the cause much more questionable.
Kawa I know how you feel I lost a friend on 576
