Missing Twin Squirrel: Wales/Ireland
Of course in Yorkshire it would be AHFT'R
TC .... Most of the time it is ...but not this time !!
When you teach your son to drive a car and he passes his test and goes off on his own in the pouring rain ....... Do you feel better that you took him into a field and showed him how you can feel when the car is about to skid . Maybe you let him over cook it and spin the car and show him how he was powerless to stop it spinning ? Then you hope he thinks of that when he is on the road ..... Forewarned .
With helicopters we have none of this . We train in good weather . We land at prepared sites . We practice loads of engine off autos etc which are fun , but quite frankly the very least thing likely to kill you !! We pass our test .
Then alone we go to friends houses , unprepared and we fly home into a front . This is possibly the first time we have ever flown in bumpy cloudy weather , albeit keeping 500ft ..just .
That is not the way I first flew with my licence I can tell you !!
But you stay happy with the system that you think is working so well ....
When you teach your son to drive a car and he passes his test and goes off on his own in the pouring rain ....... Do you feel better that you took him into a field and showed him how you can feel when the car is about to skid . Maybe you let him over cook it and spin the car and show him how he was powerless to stop it spinning ? Then you hope he thinks of that when he is on the road ..... Forewarned .
With helicopters we have none of this . We train in good weather . We land at prepared sites . We practice loads of engine off autos etc which are fun , but quite frankly the very least thing likely to kill you !! We pass our test .
Then alone we go to friends houses , unprepared and we fly home into a front . This is possibly the first time we have ever flown in bumpy cloudy weather , albeit keeping 500ft ..just .
That is not the way I first flew with my licence I can tell you !!
But you stay happy with the system that you think is working so well ....
It's all down to the individual I'm afraid. Some folks just need to learn the hard way for themselves. I've had private students that I'd toss the keys to a $5m ship and guys with 20 years commercial experience that I wouldn't let wash the screens. All we can do as a community is to try and make our experience pubic and hopefully those that are reachable become educated. As a private pilot you'll pretty much do anything to go flying. Most of the commercial guys that have some scope to reject missions without reprisals, will always veer with the safety card and decline flights when the SMS score is off the charts. It's not done to inconvenience the customers, it's done because it's the right thing to do. Don't be a hero, just say no. There's always tomorrow - just make sure you keep the option open.
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Alpha,
There are many new PPL's who want to fly Rotary that would have great difficulty in riding a two wheeler, money and paying more dose'nt really get to the point,, how many people have a sack full of cash and no brainpower to decide what they want...
There are many new PPL's who want to fly Rotary that would have great difficulty in riding a two wheeler, money and paying more dose'nt really get to the point,, how many people have a sack full of cash and no brainpower to decide what they want...
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I'm with TC and no doubt several others on this one - I do not think VFR pilots undertaking a bit of IMC experience/light training will help in an emergency IMC situation. And indeed is likely to make some more cavalier in such weather.
It is not that difficult, in a pre-planned exercise with an instructor alongside, maintaining straight and level on instruments for a while. Turning, climbing and descending a bit too. However the difficulty escalates massively when thrust into the reality of using those tentative skills in anger on your own - because you've entered IMC inadvertently. Firstly there is the panic of being in an emergency situation. Now you're really on your own. And the circumstances are completely different to a nice little exercise - to even be in this situation the weather is seriously ****ty and ground beneath you unsuitable for a landing - otherwise you would have done. So now, amidst major stress, those nice little control inputs that kept you close to a target attitude and heading in your IMC experience are getting increasingly large and the whole deal has got massively more challenging. Quite probably too challenging - and disaster is seconds away.
But say you manage to stay calm enough to maintain control - now there are a load of things to think about - on top of keeping that attitude and heading in tolerance. What's the surrounding terrain like? Which direction must you head to avoid high ground and obstacles? Is your climb rate high enough to avoid them? The chances are you've been so preoccupied groping along semi VFR that you've not got any clear idea of where or how you can climb to MSA safely and start to settle down. Look at the chart to see? Forget it! Even glancing at a moving map will be a huge challenge. But say then you get to MSA safely. Now what? Where is there good enough weather to do a safe let down? How will you know? Have you got enough fuel to get there - and try several times?
Then the chances are such VFR pilots are in a single engine, VFR machine, and probably don't have an autopilot, which massively increases the workload. Indeed a u/s autopilot renders single pilot IMC operation illegal in Europe, even for IR pilots, so what chance has a VFR pilot got in this situation?
And so it goes on. IFR flying requires a whole load more thought and planning than VFR - it's not just the aircraft control.
No, I'm afraid I advocate a policy of VFR pilots just never ever getting IMC inadvertently. It's not that hard. Keep to (legal) limits that you're comfortable with, go lower and slower until you reach them, and then either turn back or land. But never lose visual contact with that precious ground!
It is not that difficult, in a pre-planned exercise with an instructor alongside, maintaining straight and level on instruments for a while. Turning, climbing and descending a bit too. However the difficulty escalates massively when thrust into the reality of using those tentative skills in anger on your own - because you've entered IMC inadvertently. Firstly there is the panic of being in an emergency situation. Now you're really on your own. And the circumstances are completely different to a nice little exercise - to even be in this situation the weather is seriously ****ty and ground beneath you unsuitable for a landing - otherwise you would have done. So now, amidst major stress, those nice little control inputs that kept you close to a target attitude and heading in your IMC experience are getting increasingly large and the whole deal has got massively more challenging. Quite probably too challenging - and disaster is seconds away.
But say you manage to stay calm enough to maintain control - now there are a load of things to think about - on top of keeping that attitude and heading in tolerance. What's the surrounding terrain like? Which direction must you head to avoid high ground and obstacles? Is your climb rate high enough to avoid them? The chances are you've been so preoccupied groping along semi VFR that you've not got any clear idea of where or how you can climb to MSA safely and start to settle down. Look at the chart to see? Forget it! Even glancing at a moving map will be a huge challenge. But say then you get to MSA safely. Now what? Where is there good enough weather to do a safe let down? How will you know? Have you got enough fuel to get there - and try several times?
Then the chances are such VFR pilots are in a single engine, VFR machine, and probably don't have an autopilot, which massively increases the workload. Indeed a u/s autopilot renders single pilot IMC operation illegal in Europe, even for IR pilots, so what chance has a VFR pilot got in this situation?
And so it goes on. IFR flying requires a whole load more thought and planning than VFR - it's not just the aircraft control.
No, I'm afraid I advocate a policy of VFR pilots just never ever getting IMC inadvertently. It's not that hard. Keep to (legal) limits that you're comfortable with, go lower and slower until you reach them, and then either turn back or land. But never lose visual contact with that precious ground!
Hear hear rotorspeed.
Nigelh If I was to use your analogy of teaching your son to drive a car, I would compare apples with apples. IE, the equivalent of going IIMC (don't confuse IMC with your IFR) in your sons circumstances would be like asking him to drive in the pitch black with all the lights off and at relatively high speed (70+kts = 80mph).
I challenge anyone other than a very well trained and current expert to achieve that.
Flying IMC safely is a perishable skill. Don't practice regularly and you'll find you have to start almost from scratch the first time you try it after a long lay off.
Sir Korsky - aahh the pilot who knows when to say no. Of course we all have that choice don't we. Tell that to the wife of the deceased pilot who flew his boss into the ground during that private IMC departure from a field about 5 years ago. The boss didn't threaten him with the job did he? The Chelsea chairman crash in 1996.......not that easy in real life I'm afraid if you are either a corporate pilot, or, for that matter, an EMS pilot in the USA
Nigelh If I was to use your analogy of teaching your son to drive a car, I would compare apples with apples. IE, the equivalent of going IIMC (don't confuse IMC with your IFR) in your sons circumstances would be like asking him to drive in the pitch black with all the lights off and at relatively high speed (70+kts = 80mph).
I challenge anyone other than a very well trained and current expert to achieve that.
Flying IMC safely is a perishable skill. Don't practice regularly and you'll find you have to start almost from scratch the first time you try it after a long lay off.
Sir Korsky - aahh the pilot who knows when to say no. Of course we all have that choice don't we. Tell that to the wife of the deceased pilot who flew his boss into the ground during that private IMC departure from a field about 5 years ago. The boss didn't threaten him with the job did he? The Chelsea chairman crash in 1996.......not that easy in real life I'm afraid if you are either a corporate pilot, or, for that matter, an EMS pilot in the USA
Sir Korsky - aahh the pilot who knows when to say no. Of course we all have that choice don't we. Tell that to the wife of the deceased pilot who flew his boss into the ground during that private IMC departure from a field about 5 years ago. The boss didn't threaten him with the job did he? The Chelsea chairman crash in 1996.......not that easy in real life I'm afraid if you are either a corporate pilot, or, for that matter, an EMS pilot in the USA
Maybe somebody needs to take over from where Gary left off.
http://www.helicoptersafety.org/safetyevenings.asp
Last edited by Sir Korsky; 4th Apr 2017 at 21:27.
How many more examples will there be whereby intelligent (non qualified) passengers in light aircraft would rather die than ask the "Captain" what the hell he is doing?? How many times will said Captain persuade himself that all is well when he knows that he's in big trouble and he's unsure what, if any, his solution is to this self induced problem.
As others have said - have a Plan B/C , don't go IMC unless you are trained and current, turn back early and keep away from mountains in bad weather.
As others have said - have a Plan B/C , don't go IMC unless you are trained and current, turn back early and keep away from mountains in bad weather.
Rotorspeed .... Thanks , but you say it like I don't agree with you !! All you say is in agreement with me .....but maybe you are just not reading it !!
Last word is that I believe a scripted inadvertent IFR expedition for a low time pilot , under supervision, will make him a safer pilot . He will then be under no illusions that he could brave his way out . It is certainly the effect it had on me 35 years ago and I haven't gone into cloud since without supervision to this day .
Maybe your right and I'm wrong but we can agree we all want the same thing !!
Last word is that I believe a scripted inadvertent IFR expedition for a low time pilot , under supervision, will make him a safer pilot . He will then be under no illusions that he could brave his way out . It is certainly the effect it had on me 35 years ago and I haven't gone into cloud since without supervision to this day .
Maybe your right and I'm wrong but we can agree we all want the same thing !!
The context of suggesting the inadvertent IMC training is not to impart the handling skills necessary to depart from the inadvertent IMC, but to impart better decision making in the first place so as not to require the handling skills they don't have.
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stop bashing the PPL's some of them are extremely good pilots. I fly and train with both PPL and commercial pilots.
One thing for sure is I keep reading about twin engine commercially operated machines crashing in poor weather a lot more so than PPL's recently,
It's a very sad situation - let's let the AAIB do there job and then we can comment.
Oh and maybe we should put an experience restriction on posting on here too!
One thing for sure is I keep reading about twin engine commercially operated machines crashing in poor weather a lot more so than PPL's recently,
It's a very sad situation - let's let the AAIB do there job and then we can comment.
Oh and maybe we should put an experience restriction on posting on here too!
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Does anyone actually know the level of experience/qualifications/currency this particular pilot had or have that last few pages been based on the assumption of "rich-bloke-fancy-toy"?
Cows - I'm not sure it matters whether he had 100 hrs or 10,000 or whether he was PPL orATPLIR - it appears he planned to make a flight in poor weather, with few options, under self -imposed pressure to make a family gathering. It was his decision-making process that was at fault and, as we have discussed frequently, it is not just low-time pilots who make crap decisions.
Scardy - what you describe is flying supervision, something that may be available if you work for a company with experienced pilots but is generally sadly lacking in private flying. Having someone to look at your plan with a fresh pair of eyes and no self-imposed pressures and who is prepared to be honest about your ability to perform the flight in the prevailing conditions can be the difference between life and death.
Scardy - what you describe is flying supervision, something that may be available if you work for a company with experienced pilots but is generally sadly lacking in private flying. Having someone to look at your plan with a fresh pair of eyes and no self-imposed pressures and who is prepared to be honest about your ability to perform the flight in the prevailing conditions can be the difference between life and death.
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SFIM, you only posted that he was "greatly experienced". Hours and currency not specified. I had a FW PPL IR, with probably about 30 hours total actual IMC. And more than once chickened out when the forecast did not agree with actual weather encountered. Much easier to chicken out when you are by yourself.
All we can do as a community is to try and make our experience pubic and hopefully those that are reachable become educated.
I was educated about a particular private operator with a twin IFR helicopter whom, I was told, would unnecessarily fly into crap weather rather than wait it out.
That advice I took seriously and steered clear of a commercial involvement with that operator. Sadly, two years later he perished in very poor weather on a mission where I may have been a passenger.
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I have known this pilot for 20 years, he was a friend, I am not a pilot but find this thread very interesting, I suppose it is the wanting to known what could of gone wrong.
Reply 180 states he was at 2700ft between 1227 and 1253 wouldn't that put him IMC if he was IMC at 2300ft?
If so then it was not an 'inadvertent' IMC more a MSA issue ??
Would that not be a "off course" issue, looking at the google earth map it looks like the last major hill to cover before water ?
Just so Ive said it, I do not understand 6 family members, snowdonia then water with adverse weather - just doesn't compute with the man that I knew
Reply 180 states he was at 2700ft between 1227 and 1253 wouldn't that put him IMC if he was IMC at 2300ft?
If so then it was not an 'inadvertent' IMC more a MSA issue ??
Would that not be a "off course" issue, looking at the google earth map it looks like the last major hill to cover before water ?
Just so Ive said it, I do not understand 6 family members, snowdonia then water with adverse weather - just doesn't compute with the man that I knew