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SAR S-92 Missing Ireland

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SAR S-92 Missing Ireland

Old 13th Apr 2017, 15:31
  #821 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: 60 north
Age: 55
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Instrument Approach error?

I have asked before and nobody dare touch it.
The elefant in the room if you will,,,,,
Likely occurance:

A gross error in flying a " IFR " approach that was not picked up by existing procedure or common practice !

Why? We shall see.

What I like to know is how is it normally done, what equipment is needed.
What training is done , what standards apply. What is common and what discression does the Crew have? ???

It is hard to compare Heli SAR/NS oil IFR,and Airline but lets try.
After all in BGO , SVG and Aberdeen we are all just a number on the ILS, inbound.
So basics are the same, Me Cat C, You Cat A!

The outbound IFR to VFR transition, is what an old B 737-800 driver is interrested in.
Can anyone enlighten us on this, please?
It is unlikely this senior crew messed it up, if Your procedure is solid.
So, me thinks :the procedure is not good!

So, again : What is the procedure, in detail? Anyone?

With Great Respect
Cpt B
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Old 13th Apr 2017, 15:58
  #822 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
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Originally Posted by BluSdUp View Post

The outbound IFR to VFR transition, is what an old B 737-800 driver is interrested in.

It is unlikely this senior crew messed it up, if Your procedure is solid.
There is no magic IFR to VFR transition. Just like in your B737-800, the pilot of an IFR helicopter conforms to a published procedure until visual. If you're not visual at the MAPt you follow the missed approach procedure and either try again, or hold, or go somewhere else.

And as for the other question. A senior crew can mess up, I can assure you of that. We see it quite often in simulator training (but I'm not saying for sure this crew messed up, but it's certainly a possibility).
gulliBell is offline  
Old 13th Apr 2017, 18:19
  #823 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: GB
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Originally Posted by gulliBell View Post
A senior crew can mess up, I can assure you of that.
+1

Remember Tenerife...
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Old 13th Apr 2017, 18:44
  #824 (permalink)  
 
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Location: 60 north
Age: 55
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Anyone have a link to the plates for Blacksod?
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Old 13th Apr 2017, 19:19
  #825 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Canada
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Originally Posted by BluSdUp View Post
I have asked before and nobody dare touch it.
The elefant in the room if you will,,,,,
Likely occurance:

A gross error in flying a " IFR " approach that was not picked up by existing procedure or common practice !

Why? We shall see.

What I like to know is how is it normally done, what equipment is needed.
What training is done , what standards apply. What is common and what discression does the Crew have? ???

It is hard to compare Heli SAR/NS oil IFR,and Airline but lets try.
After all in BGO , SVG and Aberdeen we are all just a number on the ILS, inbound.
So basics are the same, Me Cat C, You Cat A!

The outbound IFR to VFR transition, is what an old B 737-800 driver is interrested in.
Can anyone enlighten us on this, please?
It is unlikely this senior crew messed it up, if Your procedure is solid.
So, me thinks :the procedure is not good!

So, again : What is the procedure, in detail? Anyone?

With Great Respect
Cpt B
I do agree with the elephant in the room characterization, but I believe the elephant is systemic before it is crew.
cncpc is offline  
Old 13th Apr 2017, 20:36
  #826 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Wales
Posts: 456
Originally Posted by BluSdUp View Post
Anyone have a link to the plates for Blacksod?
Unless things have changed in the last 18 years since I was there in a Seaking there are no plates or IFR procedures to remote sites such as Blacksod. We would, if IMC, have carried out a radar letdown overwater on our search radar, possibly but unusually to full FCS hover, and then radar guided hover taxy if still v low viz but in sight of the surface, to the LS. I assume S92 operators have similar company procedures?

The following information was published - there may be more these days. Hope that helps. http://www.dttas.ie/sites/default/fi...010-signed.pdf

Last edited by Al-bert; 13th Apr 2017 at 23:18.
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Old 13th Apr 2017, 20:38
  #827 (permalink)  
Before "Ze Germans" get here
 
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'We're gone' - last words from cockpit of Rescue 116 as report reveals 'rapid pitch up' - Independent.ie

Not sure where they are getting that info, AAIU page has no preliminary report published yet.

Downed Rescue 116 'pitched up rapidly' in final seconds before striking terrain, preliminary report reveals

A preliminary report into downed Rescue 116 has revealed the coastguard helicopter 'pitched up rapidly' in its final seconds.
The report relied on data recovered from the FLight Data recorder and the Health and Usage Monitoring System (HUMS) card.
"Flight data recorded on the Health and Usage Monitoring System (HUMS) card and the FDR, showed that the helicopter was in stable level flight at 200 ft Radio Altitude, 75 kts Indicated Airspeed, helicopter heading 120 degrees magnetic (approximately) on a track towards waypoint BLKMO. In the final seconds, the helicopter pitched up rapidly,impacted with terrain at the western end of Black Rock and departed from controlled flight", the report states.

More to follow.
Online Editors
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Old 13th Apr 2017, 21:11
  #828 (permalink)  
 
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ACCIDENT: Sikorsky S-92A, EI-ICR, Black Rock, Co. Mayo Ireland 14th March 2017: Report 2017-006 Preliminary | AAIU.ie
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Old 13th Apr 2017, 21:16
  #829 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
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More from that report...

A preliminary report into downed Rescue 116 has revealed the coastguard helicopter 'pitched up rapidly' in its final seconds.The report also revealed that the helicopter's on board warning system did not have data related to Blackrock island.An obstacle data base on their system did not list the lighthouse on Blackrock, and the terrain database did not have information on the terrain on the island.



Audio data revealed Captain Dara Fitzpatrick and co-pilot Mark Duffy had discussed earlier in the flight that it had been a long time since either had visited the island.
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Old 13th Apr 2017, 22:01
  #830 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 195
Heartbreaking reading the CVR transcript. One line in the interim report stands out though and probably confirms what most of us were thinking;

"The CVR recording contains no reference by the Crew to the presence of a lighthouse or terrain at Black Rock during their briefing for APBSS.

I'm somewhat surprised that Blackrock wasn't in the terrain database. For a fleet of helicopters expected to conduct SAROPS anywhere in the Irish SRR (and beyond), often in very poor weather conditions/in the dark, that seems remiss.
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Old 13th Apr 2017, 22:23
  #831 (permalink)  
 
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Just a question.....what is the feasibility of having had Radar Transponders installed at Light Houses such as Black Rock?
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Old 13th Apr 2017, 22:51
  #832 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
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Simply and utterly horrendous! RIP guys.
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Old 13th Apr 2017, 22:55
  #833 (permalink)  
puntosaurus
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SASless, I think I'd ask that question the other way round.

What is the point in having a procedure encourage helicopters to route to the highest obstacle around when the obstacle has no navaid of any practical use, is miles away from the intended landing spot, and then for good measure leaves out vertical guidance.
 
Old 13th Apr 2017, 23:01
  #834 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
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Obviously the omission of Blackrock in the EGPWS database is bad, but Blackrock was featured on the more detailed of the 5 charts in the moving map system, which was being displayed on one of the captain's screens. And it is featured with height 282ft on the Operators Route Guide to Blacksod that they were following. So it appears information was there to notify the crew of Blackrock's presence. And indeed the captain had considered an ALTITUDE warning 26 secs before impact as being "a small island" (which it was), so realised they weren't just over flat sea.

But what I really don't understand is why, 10 miles out, the crew had already descended so low as 200ft RA. It seems they had a standard SAR approach mode APP1 selected, which took them down to 200ft, but why? At least so soon?
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Old 13th Apr 2017, 23:11
  #835 (permalink)  
puntosaurus
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Well the obvious conclusion is that they didn't realise that Blackrock was such a substantial feature. The Commander herself called one of the smaller islets 0.65nm earlier as being the IP. Why didn't the operational route guide show a green spot under the waypoint. Drawn to scale it would still have been identifiable as a substantial chunk of hard stuff.

Last edited by puntosaurus; 13th Apr 2017 at 23:25.
 
Old 13th Apr 2017, 23:26
  #836 (permalink)  
 
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Punt,

Slowly.....if Blackrock had been equipped with a Transponder as is generally done with Oil Rigs and Platforms......and you had your Radar appropriately set up.....then that bit of Rock would be very easily identified.

If you had included Blackrock as a Waypoint the GPS would point to it as well.....and with a moving map display there would be a third way of identifying it....and with a Minimum Crossing Altitude/Height....in a preplanned Approach Procedure.....then by adding some Structure to an Arrival to Blacksod.....safety would be enhanced....would it not?

What technical issues (if any) prevent the Irish Light House authorities from installing the Transponder?
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Old 13th Apr 2017, 23:32
  #837 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
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The AAIU should make a safety recommendation that all night SAR operations shall have NVD. This would most probably have saved them...
Hopefully that will be in the future SAR regulation and a conclusion in the final report.

A lot to learn from this accident...the most shocking and biggest Swiss cheese whole is that Blackrock is not in the EGPWS data base....no last defense...
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Old 13th Apr 2017, 23:34
  #838 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
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Originally Posted by puntosaurus View Post
SASless, I think I'd ask that question the other way round.

What is the point in having a procedure encourage helicopters to route to the highest obstacle around when the obstacle has no navaid of any practical use, is miles away from the intended landing spot, and then for good measure leaves out vertical guidance.
I can't imagine that whoever at CHC drew up this "approach" knew that Blackrock was 310 feet high. He or she must have had the topo that showed it to be 32 feet high.

Sorry, I've now read Rotorspeeds post and see that the height is on the route guide.
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Old 13th Apr 2017, 23:35
  #839 (permalink)  
puntosaurus
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Sasless. Well I agree that there were lots of other mechanisms already in the cockpit that could have alerted the crew to the presence of the island, and one more (Txpndr) might have helped. But the fundamental problem appears to be that the crew clearly didn't know that BLKMO was above a large island, rather than a small rock (Carrick something or other) barely exposed at low tide.

If your IP is just a Lat/Long in the FMC, why on earth place it over the highest point around. The purpose of a letdown over water is surely to keep you away from the hard stuff until you are ready for it.

cnpc. Whoever drew up the approach knew the island was 282ft high, because he or she wrote it on the plate.

oden. The guys in the back knew they were headed for the island because they were looking at an image of it on a display. Presumably the crew were not looking at that display.

Last edited by puntosaurus; 13th Apr 2017 at 23:48.
 
Old 13th Apr 2017, 23:38
  #840 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
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Originally Posted by SASless View Post
P

If you had included Blackrock as a Waypoint the GPS would point to it as well.....and with a moving map display there would be a third way of identifying it....and with a Minimum Crossing Altitude/Height....in a preplanned Approach Procedure.....then by adding some Structure to an Arrival to Blacksod.....safety would be enhanced....would it not?
I think Blackrock was a waypoint.
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