Latest on the AW 609?
Joined: Oct 2006
Aviation Qualifications: A&P
Posts: 1,346
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From: USA
I saw some videos of your tests plus had a couple friends involved in the process. Big aircraft, big flare! Were you looking out the skylight to get your reference?
I've been in a few Astar full autos with a big flare but can't imagine what it was like in that big tub. At least with a nose wheel you didn't ride over on the nose and rip out your pitot tube....
I've been in a few Astar full autos with a big flare but can't imagine what it was like in that big tub. At least with a nose wheel you didn't ride over on the nose and rip out your pitot tube....
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,017
Likes: 165
From: Hobe Sound, Florida
Wrench 1 wrote:
“At least with a nose wheel you didn't ride over on the nose and rip out your pitot tube....”
Indeed an issue with some machines. Once upon a time in a place called Camp Holloway, I had a side job as unit Standardization Pilot and gave the newbies a local check ride/local procedure ride, which included some power recovery autos. The point of which was simple: the Central Highlands had a lot of red clay and in dry season the coefficient of friction of that stuff was a very big number, thus in any real auto, one wanted to get as close to zero speed as possible in the flare. One young aviator just out of Ft Rucker was really not getting it slowed down, so at the end of his flare and rock over to level I told him I had the controls and began a takeoff from say 20 kts. Put the nose down, raised the collective and got to maybe 50 ft when the T-53 stalled and the Nr drooped. Managed to get it level and used what potential energy still in the rotor to cushion, but we were going maybe 25 or so on flat red clay. Ship rolled up on its nose and broke the chin bubbles but I kept the cyclic centered so the tail was ok. New engine, plastic and skids and it flew the next day. Wasn’t quite sure it wasn’t going to nose over to be honest. The main rotor was very close to hitting the ground directly in front, but didn’t.
“At least with a nose wheel you didn't ride over on the nose and rip out your pitot tube....”
Indeed an issue with some machines. Once upon a time in a place called Camp Holloway, I had a side job as unit Standardization Pilot and gave the newbies a local check ride/local procedure ride, which included some power recovery autos. The point of which was simple: the Central Highlands had a lot of red clay and in dry season the coefficient of friction of that stuff was a very big number, thus in any real auto, one wanted to get as close to zero speed as possible in the flare. One young aviator just out of Ft Rucker was really not getting it slowed down, so at the end of his flare and rock over to level I told him I had the controls and began a takeoff from say 20 kts. Put the nose down, raised the collective and got to maybe 50 ft when the T-53 stalled and the Nr drooped. Managed to get it level and used what potential energy still in the rotor to cushion, but we were going maybe 25 or so on flat red clay. Ship rolled up on its nose and broke the chin bubbles but I kept the cyclic centered so the tail was ok. New engine, plastic and skids and it flew the next day. Wasn’t quite sure it wasn’t going to nose over to be honest. The main rotor was very close to hitting the ground directly in front, but didn’t.
Last edited by JohnDixson; 21st October 2018 at 18:30. Reason: added sentence
Avoid imitations
Joined: Nov 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 15,110
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From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Secondly, let's think about when an Osprey autorotation would be necessary?
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 240
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From: West coast Australia :)
With regard to the license requirements I recently had a conversation with the 609 training team in Philly and showed them the CASA powered lift requirements, link below. He was a little surprised CASA already had the implementation planned, powered lift PPL, CPL and ATP all available.
Open the table of contents at the top of the page, select Volume 2, Part 61 and scroll down to the relevant license.
CASA regulations
Open the table of contents at the top of the page, select Volume 2, Part 61 and scroll down to the relevant license.
CASA regulations
Last edited by bigglesbutler; 21st October 2018 at 20:51. Reason: Hyper link correction
Joined: Oct 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 7,371
Likes: 926
From: Den Haag
With regard to the license requirements I recently had a conversation with the 609 training team in Philly and showed them the CASA powered lift requirements, link below. He was a little surprised CASA already had the implementation planned, powered lift PPL, CPL and ATP all available.
Open the table of contents at the top of the page, select Volume 2, Part 61 and scroll down to the relevant license.
CASA regulations
Open the table of contents at the top of the page, select Volume 2, Part 61 and scroll down to the relevant license.
CASA regulations
Joined: May 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 18,633
Likes: 1,072
From: Downeast
The FAA does allow for a Military Pilot to obtain a Commercial Pilot License under the "Military Competency" method.
How will that work for those Military Pilots rated in the V-22 Osprey or any of its derivatives?
https://www.faa.gov/training_testing...ia/mcn_acs.pdf
How will that work for those Military Pilots rated in the V-22 Osprey or any of its derivatives?
https://www.faa.gov/training_testing...ia/mcn_acs.pdf
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 258
Likes: 58
From: USA
Last time I was in the sim it had a more traditional collective, not the V-22 setup. I assume it hasn’t been changed during AW’s ownership of the program, but I suppose that’s possible.
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 727
Likes: 47
From: Earth
609 and V280 use a conventional "collective" arrangement, both to ease the transition of rotary wing pilots already familiar with the setup. The TCL on V22 so far is the only implementation of the other paradigm.
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,534
Likes: 293
From: The Alps
N609PH
N609PH made a first with achieving long range flight Verigiate to Dubai last October. It was there for both the World Expo and the Dubai Air Show (of which I attended) so here are my photos below.
cheers
cheers
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,534
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From: The Alps
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 327
Likes: 40
From: Melbourne, Australia
I prefer the painted one. The mismatched engine cowlings don't work for me.
If I recall correctly, one of the EMS operations in Australia was seriously considering one of these.
I don't know much about they work. Do both engines power a common gearbox to keep both props turning if one engine fails? Does the wing take over the load for gliding if both props stop? I wonder if these things have been tested if so.
If I recall correctly, one of the EMS operations in Australia was seriously considering one of these.
I don't know much about they work. Do both engines power a common gearbox to keep both props turning if one engine fails? Does the wing take over the load for gliding if both props stop? I wonder if these things have been tested if so.
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 300
Likes: 42
From: Texas
Additionally, unlike the V-22 that needed to compromise rotor diameter to fit on the deck of an aircraft carrier folded, the 609 rotors are large enough to provide capability for auto rotation all the way to the ground safely.
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 382
Likes: 15
From: Out there
I think it has its merits as a tool and here in Australia on EMS to locations without a strip it would be hard to beat. As an EMS pilot I'd love to see how it would go for remote work. That said, and not a criticism, most of the population is based around the coast and more often than not a helicopter can get the job done. Inland, a different story.
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,017
Likes: 165
From: Hobe Sound, Florida
CTR-any idea what the auto descent rate is at max weight? Ditto for auto Nr?
Also, did the certification authority require an autorotation landing?
Also, did the certification authority require an autorotation landing?
Last edited by JohnDixson; 22nd October 2022 at 13:50. Reason: Added note
Joined: May 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 18,633
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From: Downeast
The Achilles heel of the Osprey as I understand it is the lack of a full regime autorotative landing capability....compounded by its OEI weight limits in OGE Hovers.
Last edited by SASless; 22nd October 2022 at 21:12. Reason: correcting autocorrect for spelling error
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 5
Likes: 1
From: San Diego
A shame it couldn't have been a type rating that could be acquired, perhaps for dual rated pilots, then as a whole separate license category.
Definitely limits the pool available who are cleared to fly it to either being military trained or civilians with a boatload of money.
Definitely limits the pool available who are cleared to fly it to either being military trained or civilians with a boatload of money.
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 300
Likes: 42
From: Texas
The aircraft max weight has grown since AW took over responsibility, so I cannot state if it is possible at max weight.
When Bell test pilot Roy Hopkins flew the simulated auto rotation test flight, he throttled both engines back in airplane mode, proceeded to go through emergency reconversion to VTOL mode, the simulated and autorotation to ground landing at a safe altitude to allow recovery. Looking at the telemetry altitude traces, upon first flaring for the autorotation landing the aircraft actually gained altitude and required lowering the collective to finally land.
The 609 minimum Nr is actually more critical to maintaining support to the fly by wire systems continued operation versus adequate kinetic energy for auto rotation. When reconverting to VTOL excessive Nr decay from lack of air flow windmilling the rotors can cause generators and pumps to go off-line.
Last edited by CTR; 22nd October 2022 at 20:02. Reason: Typo