ATSB Safety Message - Robinson R44 VH-KJJ
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ATSB Safety Message - Robinson R44 VH-KJJ
Below is a quote in the summary of the investigation the ATSB. The words used by ATSB give rise for concern about the level of knowledge in ATSB.
As far as I can remember, the manufacturer of the R44 and the R22 prohibits pilots exiting the helicopter with the rotor turning.
http://www.robinsonhelicopter.com/se...s/rhc_sn17.pdf
Does the ATSB know about these publications???? It appears not.
Contrary to what some in the industry believe or have been taught and the inference from what the ATSB have written, "hot refuelling" of a helicopter requires two people, the pilot at the controls and the refueller.
In addition, the ATSB cautions pilots and operators to conduct hot refuelling in accordance with the aircraft flight manual and Civil Aviation Safety Authority regulations. Further, leaving the flight controls of an operating Robinson Helicopter Company R44 helicopter to conduct refuelling increases the risk of a loss of control.
http://www.robinsonhelicopter.com/se...s/rhc_sn17.pdf
Does the ATSB know about these publications???? It appears not.
Contrary to what some in the industry believe or have been taught and the inference from what the ATSB have written, "hot refuelling" of a helicopter requires two people, the pilot at the controls and the refueller.
601 think you are missing the point here ,wtf were they doing leaving the controls and a hot refuel with avgas, now there is one for the safety management system or in this case a not !
Do companies down under really think this is safe ??????
Do companies down under really think this is safe ??????
Thread Starter
601 think you are missing the point here ,wtf were they doing leaving the controls and a hot refuel with avgas, now there is one for the safety management system or in this case a not !
"Hot refuelling" of a helicopter in Oz is permitted providing the procedure is written in the OM and is in accordance with CAO 20.10.
https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2005B00788
Leaving the controls of a helicopter is also approved by CAO 95.7.7. The procedure would also is covered in the OM.
https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2010C00712
As these two CAO are exemptions against different CARs, you cannot combine both exemptions to hot refuel by yourself.
As I said in my OP, hot refuelling (in Oz) requires at least two people, the pilot at the controls and the refueller.
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Is it smart to do hot refueling with AVGAS? I say "No".
Would I leave the controls with the rotor still turning? I've done it occasionally in the past but wasn't comfortable with the situation.
Would I do it in a R44? Definetly no more as I've almost lost one R44 doing it.
However, the Safety Notice in the POH is not part of the approved handbook, it's a notice (recommendation) so I guess the OZ CAA can overrule the manufacturer's recommendation. But then again I might be wrong.
Would I leave the controls with the rotor still turning? I've done it occasionally in the past but wasn't comfortable with the situation.
Would I do it in a R44? Definetly no more as I've almost lost one R44 doing it.
However, the Safety Notice in the POH is not part of the approved handbook, it's a notice (recommendation) so I guess the OZ CAA can overrule the manufacturer's recommendation. But then again I might be wrong.
The Catch.
Leaving the controls - "Locking" of the controls - it needs to specifically refer to "locks" which does NOT include friction systems.
Hot refuelling - refers to "operator" which infers commercial operator. PVT ops do not have operations manuals and/or operators so not applicable or allowed.
Unless your POH allows it then no pilot at the controls would require an STC.
The regs cannot "override" the POH on their own.
Leaving the controls - "Locking" of the controls - it needs to specifically refer to "locks" which does NOT include friction systems.
Hot refuelling - refers to "operator" which infers commercial operator. PVT ops do not have operations manuals and/or operators so not applicable or allowed.
Unless your POH allows it then no pilot at the controls would require an STC.
The regs cannot "override" the POH on their own.
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I would hazard a guess that there are at least 500 hot refuelling events of R22's and R44's almost every day of the year in Australia.
It's unfortunate that someone twisting the truth to the ATSB could result in this common sense and practical allowance being retracted by CASA.
The day that pilots stick their hands up and tell the ATSB exactly what happened and not a version that will ensure insurance will be paid out will be the day that the ATSB can actually do their jobs properly.
It's unfortunate that someone twisting the truth to the ATSB could result in this common sense and practical allowance being retracted by CASA.
The day that pilots stick their hands up and tell the ATSB exactly what happened and not a version that will ensure insurance will be paid out will be the day that the ATSB can actually do their jobs properly.
Thread Starter
so 601 you are saying that Oz rules goes over Robinson POH
Just pointing out that the CAOs permit a pilot to leave the controls of a helicopter with the rotor turning provided certain conditions are met. One of these conditions is
(b) the helicopter is fitted with a serviceable means of locking the cyclic and collective controls; and
I would hazard a guess that there are at least 500 hot refuelling events of R22's and R44's almost every day of the year in Australia.
The OM procedure, unless the operator prohibits it, would cover the R22 and R44 provided;
1. The pilot remains at the controls (Robinson prohibits the pilot leaving the controls, SN 17), and there are no way of locking the controls in Robinson helicopters (CAO 95.7.7.2(b)) and
2. A trained refueller actually refuels the helicopter.
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If you read more of the report it does say,
The initial quote at the start of the thread was part of the summary and is what is now commonly known as 'click bait' designed to grab attention and not necessarily contain the full information.
The ATSB have made it quite clear that the pilot committed a number of errors and my opinion (2c) is that the comment about loss of control was to reinforce why the rule is there in the first place.
There was no witness to the hot refuelling, only the GPS data that showed the length of time that the aircraft was on the ground would not have allowed a proper shut down, refuel and restart in the time recorded.
As the helicopter was being operated privately that day, and therefore there was no operations manual, hot refuelling should not have been conducted. In addition, the R44 pilot’s operating handbook required the pilot to remain at the controls while the helicopter was operating.
Unmonitored helicopter flight controls with the rotors running, such as during hot refuelling, increases the risk of the helicopter unintentionally becoming airborne and subsequent injury to bystanders.
Unmonitored helicopter flight controls with the rotors running, such as during hot refuelling, increases the risk of the helicopter unintentionally becoming airborne and subsequent injury to bystanders.
The ATSB have made it quite clear that the pilot committed a number of errors and my opinion (2c) is that the comment about loss of control was to reinforce why the rule is there in the first place.
There was no witness to the hot refuelling, only the GPS data that showed the length of time that the aircraft was on the ground would not have allowed a proper shut down, refuel and restart in the time recorded.
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shell water detector in avgas???
interesting photo with red water paste and a shell water detector. have only ever used green paste that goes purple when wet. Kept the SWD for jet. Do they really know what they are looking at? 
Not much focus on drum management on the company site. Once again hang the crew and the management gets off free.
Not much focus on drum management on the company site. Once again hang the crew and the management gets off free.
Hey theoretically if your ship has one of them fancy 4 axis autopilots with auto hover could the pilot put it in a 1 foot hover next to the bowser, hop out and do a hot mid-air refuel?
Just asking!
<ducks>
Just asking!
<ducks>
