Robinson helicopters added to safety watchlist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 850
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not the first time this has come up:
NTSB Report on R-22 Accidents
NTSB Report on R-22 Accidents
https://disciplesofflight.com/sfar-7...r-in-aviation/
More helicopters = more accidents.
More students = more accidents.
Least expensive to buy, least expensive to fly, and, one has to admit, leaving aside stability and margin, the R44 has an enviable set of performance characteristics. This puts a lot of such helicopters into operation by the least experienced segment of the pilot population, both student, recreational and "light" commercial.
Grounding the Robinson fleet would help the stat's because there would be a a) huge reduction in helicopter operations worldwide, and b) a large population of less experienced pilots would no longer be able to afford to fly. The same could be said of grounding every piston single airplane. Again, where do you want to draw the line?
Leaving aside military and retired military pilots, I imagine there are not that many professional pilots flying that did not come up through Robinsons, and would not have gotten where they are if it were not for Robinsons. Not saying everyone, but most everyone.
P.S. I know I'm chewing old, very old, ground here, and beating the proverbial dead horse down another molecular layer or two
, but maybe it's sometimes worth the review? If not, my apologies...
Crapinson Flimsicopted
& let us not forget:
Catastrophic Blade failures
Main Rotor blade delaminations
Infernos from survivable rollovers & prangs
InFlight swash-plate failures
The list can go on & on & on, but we know Frank build the greatest tragic Widow-Maker that ever flew
Catastrophic Blade failures
Main Rotor blade delaminations
Infernos from survivable rollovers & prangs
InFlight swash-plate failures
The list can go on & on & on, but we know Frank build the greatest tragic Widow-Maker that ever flew
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 850
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Widow-maker or not, greatest pilot-maker, too. It's a conundrum, no doubt about it!
It can happen to any design. The 225 seems to be the latest victim.
What matters is that they get better, not worse.
It can happen to any design. The 225 seems to be the latest victim.
What matters is that they get better, not worse.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: On the move...
Age: 58
Posts: 358
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I thought I might share these as examples of when a pilot doesn't realise how close he came...
These are from a visiting machine and I only know part of the story.
Tailboom on the drivers side. Both blades have touched the tail. Only paint removed, no actual indentation.
My guess is that the aircraft was not in balance and so the tail has yawed forward to the left. As the retreating blade has flapped down, and the unload aircraft has rolled to the side... leaving the tailboom exposed to the flapping blade.
Note the upturned trailing edge. I'm not sure how much pitch was being pulled when the blade touched.
Another view of the blade tip, trailing edge.
The upturned tip caused an out of track situation which was the first thing noticed by the pilot. A track and balance was later carried out.
There were no witness marks on the main rotor mast bump stops, so it makes me wonder in what order does stuff happen? Does the blade come into contact with the tail first then snap the mast, or as the mast snaps, does it contact the cabin...
The engineer inspected it all, found it within spec' and signed it off as safe to fly.
I think someone from the factory would love to see it to see what almost happened, although they are not likely to come to Australia.
These are from a visiting machine and I only know part of the story.
Tailboom on the drivers side. Both blades have touched the tail. Only paint removed, no actual indentation.
My guess is that the aircraft was not in balance and so the tail has yawed forward to the left. As the retreating blade has flapped down, and the unload aircraft has rolled to the side... leaving the tailboom exposed to the flapping blade.
Note the upturned trailing edge. I'm not sure how much pitch was being pulled when the blade touched.
Another view of the blade tip, trailing edge.
The upturned tip caused an out of track situation which was the first thing noticed by the pilot. A track and balance was later carried out.
There were no witness marks on the main rotor mast bump stops, so it makes me wonder in what order does stuff happen? Does the blade come into contact with the tail first then snap the mast, or as the mast snaps, does it contact the cabin...
The engineer inspected it all, found it within spec' and signed it off as safe to fly.
I think someone from the factory would love to see it to see what almost happened, although they are not likely to come to Australia.
Last edited by CYHeli; 30th Oct 2016 at 06:34. Reason: fighting with photobucket
Do you happen to know the circumstances where those blade touches happened, CYHeli, e.g. running landing, practice stuck pedal, torque/pedal reversal turns or anything like that?
I've seen one that whacked a blade on the tailboom after someone ran it on into soft sand, probably with low RPM at the time.
I've seen one that whacked a blade on the tailboom after someone ran it on into soft sand, probably with low RPM at the time.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: On the move...
Age: 58
Posts: 358
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Basic story of one up, flying through turbulence. The pilot likes to brag and was describing 40kt winds. But it was at least 30. I know that he is also not one to slow down often.
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 850
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
...very scary photos...
holy cr@p!!!
Basic story of one up, flying through turbulence. The pilot likes to brag and was describing 40kt winds. But it was at least 30. I know that he is also not one to slow down often.
Thanks for posting that, CYHeli.
Every time I see a Robbie....of any description...I hit the nearest Burger Bar and order up a Double Burger, Large French Fries, and Chocolate Shake. If I cannot get into the thing then I have a lot less worry about one of them killing me.
The Burgers and Fries might...but at least it will take decades to do it.
The Burgers and Fries might...but at least it will take decades to do it.
Meet the Charity Training Future North Sea Pilots - Oil and Gas News
Most safety conscious helicopter company in the world picked what helicopter to train North Sea pilots?
Most safety conscious helicopter company in the world picked what helicopter to train North Sea pilots?
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Bulgaria
Age: 75
Posts: 86
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
subject
malabo
Their choice of helicopter might be questionable....but their motives are certainly not.
SASless
After numerous hours chasing cows and camels in them, I share your sentiments...stick with the burgers, mate...a much nicer way to go.
What I really meant to say was...I'd much prefer to be eating one, than being one!!
Their choice of helicopter might be questionable....but their motives are certainly not.
SASless
After numerous hours chasing cows and camels in them, I share your sentiments...stick with the burgers, mate...a much nicer way to go.
What I really meant to say was...I'd much prefer to be eating one, than being one!!
Last edited by bgbazz; 30th Oct 2016 at 17:58. Reason: Second thoughts.
Most safety conscious Helicopter Company in the World....as more than few of us are alumni of that illustrious concern.....you might find it a very cold room to play if you intend to peddle that notion here.
I am assuming it is that small outfit that shifted its HQ from Redhill to Houston to which you are referring.
I am assuming it is that small outfit that shifted its HQ from Redhill to Houston to which you are referring.
What market segment was Frank chasing when he designed the R-22? Chap here says "It wasn't designed as a trainer and it isn't a very good or very safe trainer".
Robinson R22 (with some comparisons to the R44)
One source says of 4620 R-22 built, at the time the stats were compiled in June 2010, there had been 182 fatal accidents from a total of 1230 accidents. 27% accident rate.
Although the offer was made by an FOI, refused to go for a ride in one many years ago.
Robinson R22 (with some comparisons to the R44)
One source says of 4620 R-22 built, at the time the stats were compiled in June 2010, there had been 182 fatal accidents from a total of 1230 accidents. 27% accident rate.
Although the offer was made by an FOI, refused to go for a ride in one many years ago.
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 850
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One source says of 4620 R-22 built, at the time the stats were compiled in June 2010, there had been 182 fatal accidents from a total of 1230 accidents. 27% accident rate.
Things are much improved now that people have a better handle on how to fly them, instruct in them, maintain them, and now that Robinson has made some improvements to the design.
As long as they remain legal people will fly the heck out of them because they are least expensive certificated helicopters to own and to fly. The lure of the sky is strong, as we all know, and generally stronger than the desire to be as safe as possible. For all of you lucky enough to be able to learn in more expensive equipment, or in the military, more power to you. For the rest of us clearly the trade-off is worth it or we wouldn't do it. And, I suspect, the idea of grounding the Robinson fleet would be seen as usurping the right to judge risk for one's self by nearly the entire population of Robinson pilots and operators.
It's interesting where people draw the line at the assumption of personal risk, particularly when money is involved. I live in a place where neither seat belts nor motorcycle helmets are required. I like that. I like that a lot. I like such personal freedom. And yet I wear both. But, obviously, I do fly Robinsons. However, I suspect that if seat belts cost $10,000/year, I might not wear them!
1.6 seconds.
So that's why, during my 3 flying lessons in one, when we had a go at autos the instructor simulated them by just lowering the collective, rather than winding off the throttle.
So that's why, during my 3 flying lessons in one, when we had a go at autos the instructor simulated them by just lowering the collective, rather than winding off the throttle.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Another one down....
From Stuff.co.nz
The bodies of two people have been found among the wreckage of a commercial helicopter that crashed in Northland's Glenbervie Forest.
The two people that died in a helicopter crash were doing surveying work over a Northland forest, timber harvesting company Rayonier said.
Rayonier's managing director Paul Nicholls said the two employees were contract
Emergency services scrambled to respond to the helicopter crash on Monday afternoon.
They were doing survey work and possibly aerial spraying over Glenbervie Forest near Hikurangi on Monday, Nicholls said.
The wreckage of their chopper, a Robinson R44, was found about 2pm.
READ MORE: Rail crossings and Robinson helicopters added to list of nation's biggest safety concerns
Police said the bodies of two people were located at the scene.
"Police are now working to identify the deceased and notify next of kin."
Emergency services rushed to the forest after an emergency beacon was activated just after 1pm. It was activated off Lookout Rd, in a heavily forested area about 20km northeast of Whangarei.
Nicholls said the company was "yet to actually confirm what [the helicopter] was doing immediately prior to the accident".
"Unfortunately we don't have a lot of detail at the minute. We don't have any clear idea of what happened. Our concern at this stage is with the families - we're pretty distressed as are the family members."
Rayonier manages the land where the helicopter crashed.
Ange Vivian, the company's general manager of support, said earlier on Monday the incident was "really serious".
"Staff from [the] Northland operation are assisting. The coverage in that area is really bad, [we're] just waiting to hear more details."
Robinson helicopters, which make up 40 per cent of the nation's chopper fleet, were last week added to a Transport Accident Investigation Commission watchlist of serious transport concerns.
On Monday night the commission said it "will not speculate or comment on any potential relationship between this afternoon's accident and its Watchlist item concerning Robinson helicopters released last week".
It said it was monitoring the Civil Aviation Authority's investigation into the crash to see whether the circumstances may warrant a separate inquiry by the commission.
"The commission opens an inquiry when it believes the circumstance may have significant implications for transport safety or allow new findings or recommendations which may increase safety," it said.
In its watchlist mentioning the Robinson helicopters it cited the potential for "mast bump".
Mast bump is contact between an inner part of the main rotor blade and the main rotor drive shaft atop the fuselage, otherwise known as the mast.
It has happened 14 times since 1996, claiming the lives of 18 people.
The incidents have raised concerns about the risks of flying Robinson helicopters in mountainous terrain and strong winds.
The outcome is usually catastrophic with the helicopter breaking up in-flight, transport accident commissioner Davies Howard said.
From Stuff.co.nz
The bodies of two people have been found among the wreckage of a commercial helicopter that crashed in Northland's Glenbervie Forest.
The two people that died in a helicopter crash were doing surveying work over a Northland forest, timber harvesting company Rayonier said.
Rayonier's managing director Paul Nicholls said the two employees were contract
Emergency services scrambled to respond to the helicopter crash on Monday afternoon.
They were doing survey work and possibly aerial spraying over Glenbervie Forest near Hikurangi on Monday, Nicholls said.
The wreckage of their chopper, a Robinson R44, was found about 2pm.
READ MORE: Rail crossings and Robinson helicopters added to list of nation's biggest safety concerns
Police said the bodies of two people were located at the scene.
"Police are now working to identify the deceased and notify next of kin."
Emergency services rushed to the forest after an emergency beacon was activated just after 1pm. It was activated off Lookout Rd, in a heavily forested area about 20km northeast of Whangarei.
Nicholls said the company was "yet to actually confirm what [the helicopter] was doing immediately prior to the accident".
"Unfortunately we don't have a lot of detail at the minute. We don't have any clear idea of what happened. Our concern at this stage is with the families - we're pretty distressed as are the family members."
Rayonier manages the land where the helicopter crashed.
Ange Vivian, the company's general manager of support, said earlier on Monday the incident was "really serious".
"Staff from [the] Northland operation are assisting. The coverage in that area is really bad, [we're] just waiting to hear more details."
Robinson helicopters, which make up 40 per cent of the nation's chopper fleet, were last week added to a Transport Accident Investigation Commission watchlist of serious transport concerns.
On Monday night the commission said it "will not speculate or comment on any potential relationship between this afternoon's accident and its Watchlist item concerning Robinson helicopters released last week".
It said it was monitoring the Civil Aviation Authority's investigation into the crash to see whether the circumstances may warrant a separate inquiry by the commission.
"The commission opens an inquiry when it believes the circumstance may have significant implications for transport safety or allow new findings or recommendations which may increase safety," it said.
In its watchlist mentioning the Robinson helicopters it cited the potential for "mast bump".
Mast bump is contact between an inner part of the main rotor blade and the main rotor drive shaft atop the fuselage, otherwise known as the mast.
It has happened 14 times since 1996, claiming the lives of 18 people.
The incidents have raised concerns about the risks of flying Robinson helicopters in mountainous terrain and strong winds.
The outcome is usually catastrophic with the helicopter breaking up in-flight, transport accident commissioner Davies Howard said.
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 850
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
According to the FAA accident database, in the USA, calendar year 2016 to date, there are 89 helicopter accident entries so far (not including home-builts). It breaks down as follows:
Make (all types), # accidents, # total fatalities
Airbus/Eurocopter, 10, 5
Hughes/MD, 12, 2
Robinson, 24, 4
Bell, 33, 12
All other makes, 10, 4
Now without knowing the total hours flown by each make, it's not a very good set of stat's. However, is it reasonable to assume that training activities, meaning Robinsons, account for most of the hours flown annually by all helicopters?
Make (all types), # accidents, # total fatalities
Airbus/Eurocopter, 10, 5
Hughes/MD, 12, 2
Robinson, 24, 4
Bell, 33, 12
All other makes, 10, 4
Now without knowing the total hours flown by each make, it's not a very good set of stat's. However, is it reasonable to assume that training activities, meaning Robinsons, account for most of the hours flown annually by all helicopters?
Hoy CYHeli - G'Day Mate scary but turbulence flying will never cause such problems in any machine but in a Crapinson 
After more the 4,500hrs flogging around in a JetBanger above 10,000' in eXtreme turbulence, with updrafts, downdrafts, swirling & 50++knots of wind; I never once came close to 'mast-bumping' or the Tail-Rotor-Blades' kissing the boom......Cheeezus that's seriously F.ing scary, welcome to the Flimsicopter range of death traps, build to break-up & crash
but turbulence flying will never cause such problems in any machine but in a Crapinson After more the 4,500hrs flogging around in a JetBanger above 10,000' in eXtreme turbulence, with updrafts, downdrafts, swirling & 50++knots of wind; I never once came close to 'mast-bumping' or the Tail-Rotor-Blades' kissing the boom......Cheeezus that's seriously F.ing scary, welcome to the Flimsicopter range of death traps, build to break-up & crash
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 850
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That's not fair, VF. "Built to break up and crash"--IF you exceed the POH limitations and guidance. Same could be said of LTE on Jetbangers. Same could be said of exceeding POH limits and guidance on ANY machine.
Clearly, not as capable machine in turbulence, the Robinson, the documentation says so, the training says so, so don't ignore either one!
Clearly, not as capable machine in turbulence, the Robinson, the documentation says so, the training says so, so don't ignore either one!
Hey aa777888 this ain't about fair, just hard facts....
tell your story to Ivor or at least another 3 good Men that I personally knew all killed whilst operating well within the RFM limits & being correctly maintained.....but the Crapinson loves to break-up in flight 
yep the Jettie can have LTE, I've induced unintentionally it at least thrice
tell your story to Ivor or at least another 3 good Men that I personally knew all killed whilst operating well within the RFM limits & being correctly maintained.....but the Crapinson loves to break-up in flight yep the Jettie can have LTE, I've induced unintentionally it at least thrice