Robinson helicopters added to safety watchlist
Are any other helicopters the subject of a SFAR like the robbie? Do any other helicopters have such fatal vices (even when inside the flight envelope)? Are any other helicopters having unexplained breakups in mid-air?
I understand the appeal of a cheap trainer (not what it was designed for) but letting low-time pilots (post PPLH) out in this thing is inviting problems. How much flight at Vne or close to it is actually covered in the PPLH syllabus - is it one of those things that is just talked about all the way to CFI level as part of the SFAR 73 awareness training or is it physically taught?
I understand the appeal of a cheap trainer (not what it was designed for) but letting low-time pilots (post PPLH) out in this thing is inviting problems. How much flight at Vne or close to it is actually covered in the PPLH syllabus - is it one of those things that is just talked about all the way to CFI level as part of the SFAR 73 awareness training or is it physically taught?
How much flight at Vne or close to it is actually covered in the PPLH syllabus
Basically you just have to not pay attention.
On the Cabri I find I'm slowing down when I'm focussing on something like radio work or navigation. You have to "intend" to get to cruising speed, 70-80.
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VF--I'm very sorry to read of the deaths of those good pilots. However many other helicopter types have had design-related fatalities, and many of those resulting in airworthiness directives, the venerable JetRanger being no exception.
Crab--I'm sure your SFAR question was rhetorical, but while not a helicopter, off the top of my head there is at least the MU-2 SFAR, so the Robinson is not entirely unique among all types of aircraft. And certainly other helicopters have other vices. Jetranger LTE and Squirrel landings both come to mind and both have resulted in poor outcomes. There surely must be other examples.
I can't speak for other students, but I have received specific instruction on Vne limits, turbulence, and low-G conditions, and have operated the 22 and 44 at or near Vne many times in instructional settings. Personally, I don't feel comfortable in winds over 25KN, nor with gust spreads much over 10KN. There is ample opportunity to train in turbulence here, with New England mountain ranges in close proximity, and I have availed myself of that opportunity.
In a three dimensional cost/performance/safety trade-off, it's pretty clear that civilian pilots, whether they be budding professionals, purely recreational, or what might be termed "light" commercial, are willing to trade off the safety dimension. The siren song of low cost with, particularly in the case of the 44, good performance, is extremely strong. For those who's choice is don't fly vs. fly Robinson, you know how all those pilots are going to choose, because pilots want to fly.
Crab--I'm sure your SFAR question was rhetorical, but while not a helicopter, off the top of my head there is at least the MU-2 SFAR, so the Robinson is not entirely unique among all types of aircraft. And certainly other helicopters have other vices. Jetranger LTE and Squirrel landings both come to mind and both have resulted in poor outcomes. There surely must be other examples.
I can't speak for other students, but I have received specific instruction on Vne limits, turbulence, and low-G conditions, and have operated the 22 and 44 at or near Vne many times in instructional settings. Personally, I don't feel comfortable in winds over 25KN, nor with gust spreads much over 10KN. There is ample opportunity to train in turbulence here, with New England mountain ranges in close proximity, and I have availed myself of that opportunity.
In a three dimensional cost/performance/safety trade-off, it's pretty clear that civilian pilots, whether they be budding professionals, purely recreational, or what might be termed "light" commercial, are willing to trade off the safety dimension. The siren song of low cost with, particularly in the case of the 44, good performance, is extremely strong. For those who's choice is don't fly vs. fly Robinson, you know how all those pilots are going to choose, because pilots want to fly.
@Megan: accident rates are typically broken down by hours flown, not by number built. (I would think that you'd know better).
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Glad to see this is getting some traction. Might be a few used 44's going cheap soon...
Robinson Helicopter "unsafe and unairworthy"
Interesting audio from a US lawyer regarding Robinsons:
Radio New Zealand Audio Player
Robinson Helicopter "unsafe and unairworthy"
Interesting audio from a US lawyer regarding Robinsons:
Radio New Zealand Audio Player
Megan: accident rates are typically broken down by hours flown, not by number built. (I would think that you'd know better)
We might ask the question if the "accidents" mentioned were just of the bent crosstube variety, or write offs. I may err by assuming the latter, which despite hours flown, would seem to me to be just a tad on the high side. Just a tad mind you.
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The other common denominator appears to be New Zealand. Is it their training or their environment? Or both? I don't know the answer. Others will know, no doubt.
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I think there is a common belief that it is only in nz that this is happening, but if you look into the world wide stats you will find Robinson helicopters have broken apart mid flight all over the world...
Other than fitting a camera to every Robbie and waiting for another one to crash, how will they ever no what is causing these in flight break ups?
Other than fitting a camera to every Robbie and waiting for another one to crash, how will they ever no what is causing these in flight break ups?
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Interesting survey indeed. From the land of adrenalin sports appears a similar approach to helicopter flying. Of course that's a huge generalisation as any particular flight school in NZ, I imagine, will gladly clarify.
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I have often wondered why there has never been an indicator fitted that will register an exceedance in manifold pressure, even if it only indicated an exceedance of the red line. I'm involved in ag work and regularly talk with pilots that claim that their 44's will carry as much product as a 206. When you ask about manifold pressure limits they change the subject...
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Article - is-there-a-problem-with-Robinson-helicopters:
"The rate of "low-G" accidents involving Robinsons is significantly higher in New Zealand than in other parts of the world - about nine times higher than the US, according to the Transport Accident Investigation Commission (TAIC)."
That's a pretty amazing statistic, if true.
"The rate of "low-G" accidents involving Robinsons is significantly higher in New Zealand than in other parts of the world - about nine times higher than the US, according to the Transport Accident Investigation Commission (TAIC)."
That's a pretty amazing statistic, if true.
Good old Kiwi bashing, always comes out.
The survey would seem to suggest there it is far more to worry about than Kiwi-bashing.
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Not defensive at all. Well maybe a little. I just get sick and tired of all kiwis being tarred with the same brush when it comes to flying. the majority us fly professionally, and have high standards. Like the majority of pilots in other areas of the world.
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it's no more tarring a brush than say locals flying 139s in Africa. But there is a pattern. Of course the majority of pilots are professional and live by high standards but there is a disproportionate amount of stats pointing a finger at NZ. Is it the inherent risk taking, which is taken for granted? Is it the commercial pressure, too many pilots, too much government grant, people willing to please and get paid peanuts?
@megan: roger, and sorry if my response came off as a bit snarky. Reading it and your reply, I think my tone could have been better. Mea culpa. I get your point on aircraft having reputations.
NZ is a sliver of mountainous terrain between two oceans and most areas in NZ are subject to gusty winds and turbulence a lot of the time. So there's a lot of flying by Robinsons in a gusty, turbulent mountainous environment.
So maybe instead of comparing NZ to say, all of USA, it would be interesting to compare NZ to Washington State for example?
So maybe instead of comparing NZ to say, all of USA, it would be interesting to compare NZ to Washington State for example?