Rotorway instructors
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Rotorway instructors
Anyone know of any CFIs able to provide instruction (PPL/LAPL) in a Rotorway (Exec 90 probably) within reach of central western Scotland? (PIK, GLA etc).
Just trying to weigh up the costs, pros & cons of instruction in an owned heli as opposed to training with a FTO, both home & abroad.
Just trying to weigh up the costs, pros & cons of instruction in an owned heli as opposed to training with a FTO, both home & abroad.
Be extremely careful with the Rotorway.
I know a very experienced pilot who dabbled with these a few years back and built a couple.
He probably had about 12,000 hours rotary at the time on Hiller 12E's, B206, H500 and Llama in the mix.
Rotorway advised him to get factory training which he conceded.
In hindsight he mentioned that without the training he would have probably crashed!
They can be a little tricky apparently.
I know a very experienced pilot who dabbled with these a few years back and built a couple.
He probably had about 12,000 hours rotary at the time on Hiller 12E's, B206, H500 and Llama in the mix.
Rotorway advised him to get factory training which he conceded.
In hindsight he mentioned that without the training he would have probably crashed!
They can be a little tricky apparently.
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According to the UK importers web site you can't do ab initio instruction on a Rotorway. You have to learn on something else then do a type conversion which can only be done at their base in Essex. Also there are very very few rated instructors and examiners in the UK. A friend has just bought one and is going through the process right now.
Southern Helicopters (at Takeley, immediately south of Stansted) are the UK distributors and hold a TRTO approval for type rating training which requires 5 hours dual plus the Skills test. Most low-time rotary pilots take the opportunity to do some additional training. There are currently 3 FIs for the type, 2 of whom are also FEs.
The Rotorway is an Annex II aircraft (ie not EASA approved) and flies on a Permit only. Whilst on the face of it CAP 804 and the ANO and ORS series suggest that the LAPL (H) syllabus may be carried as training for the issue of a NPPL (H), the CAA has yet to confirm that this is the case.
The Rotorway is an Annex II aircraft (ie not EASA approved) and flies on a Permit only. Whilst on the face of it CAP 804 and the ANO and ORS series suggest that the LAPL (H) syllabus may be carried as training for the issue of a NPPL (H), the CAA has yet to confirm that this is the case.
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According to the UK importers web site you can't do ab initio instruction on a Rotorway.
I've been looking into this in some detail and it is absolutely amazing just how 'grey' the regulations are. The nearest I could come to a written answer was that provided by the Light Aircraft Association. Since, in the UK, the Rotorway would be flown on a Permit To Fly then I understand the LAA's rules apply and, yes, they have changed from when most of us learnt to fly. I realise it is mostly theoretical, because trying to find a QHI willing to teach you in your Exec would be akin to discovering the teeth of hens but it would be a much cheaper way of learning to fly these rotary thingies and it would be nice to be much more aware of the capabilities, or otherwise, of your machine with a QHI sitting next to you.
Anyway, here's what the LAA has to say about it (no distinction between wings that move and those that don't):
Learning to fly in a LAA aircraft is quite legal, but the following conditions apply.
1. Training towards EASA and non-EASA licences, ratings, or certificates is permissible, and flight time conducted in LAA aircraft counts towards those required under EASA towards the issue, renewal, or revalidation of a licence, rating, or certificate.
Initial Issue of a Licence
2. A sole-owner or joint-owner may receive remunerated (or un-remunerated) flight training towards an initial licence in his own LAA aircraft provided: he is registered as the sole owner of the aircraft; or is a joint owner of the aircraft or a registered shareholder of the company which owns the aircraft; or is the spouse or child of the sole-owner or joint-owner.
1. Training towards EASA and non-EASA licences, ratings, or certificates is permissible, and flight time conducted in LAA aircraft counts towards those required under EASA towards the issue, renewal, or revalidation of a licence, rating, or certificate.
Initial Issue of a Licence
2. A sole-owner or joint-owner may receive remunerated (or un-remunerated) flight training towards an initial licence in his own LAA aircraft provided: he is registered as the sole owner of the aircraft; or is a joint owner of the aircraft or a registered shareholder of the company which owns the aircraft; or is the spouse or child of the sole-owner or joint-owner.
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The LAA only deal with fixed wing permit aircraft and more recently gyrocopters as well. I am not sure what their policy is regarding helicopters, however I will be going to the LAA event at Sywell this weekend so will try to get a definitive answer from them on this. The CAA are there as well.
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Thanks for all the detailed responses guys!
I was under the same impression as Pontius, that the regs had recently changed to all initial training in the Rotorway provided I was the owner.
The Rotorway was an idea I had some time ago which I felt deserved a second look after the change in regs.
I initially had my heart set on the PPL(H), but ended up with a PPL(A) after taking a trial flight in an R22 then discovering the FTOs price list had taken a 20% hike between me booking and taking the lesson!
I was under the same impression as Pontius, that the regs had recently changed to all initial training in the Rotorway provided I was the owner.
The Rotorway was an idea I had some time ago which I felt deserved a second look after the change in regs.
I initially had my heart set on the PPL(H), but ended up with a PPL(A) after taking a trial flight in an R22 then discovering the FTOs price list had taken a 20% hike between me booking and taking the lesson!
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Dougie
In theory you can do initial training in your own RW - and I have it in writing from the CAA. However, at the moment, it is probably impractical.
The LAA are not relevant to the discussion. They have made it clear they want nothing to do with helis. It is a shame but I can't see that changing.
If you learn on a 22, then get a type rating (you will have to do that at Southern Helis BTW) you may not save anything on training, but you will have a heli to fly at a reasonable cost thereafter.
Mark
In theory you can do initial training in your own RW - and I have it in writing from the CAA. However, at the moment, it is probably impractical.
The LAA are not relevant to the discussion. They have made it clear they want nothing to do with helis. It is a shame but I can't see that changing.
If you learn on a 22, then get a type rating (you will have to do that at Southern Helis BTW) you may not save anything on training, but you will have a heli to fly at a reasonable cost thereafter.
Mark
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Anyone know of any CFIs able to provide instruction (PPL/LAPL) in a Rotorway (Exec 90 probably) within reach of central western Scotland? (PIK, GLA etc).
Just trying to weigh up the costs, pros & cons of instruction in an owned heli as opposed to training with a FTO, both home & abroad.
Just trying to weigh up the costs, pros & cons of instruction in an owned heli as opposed to training with a FTO, both home & abroad.
I believe abinitio training is now possible on the Rotorway but,,, I would strongly advise learning in a Robbie and then the type rating after words.
I fly the only Rotorway in Scotland and have put around 150 hours on my own machine over the last four years.
The Rotorway has many attractions but also needs a fair bit of understanding especially concerning inertia and power.
If you want to chat about the pros and cons please let me know ,my heli G-WHOO is based in Fife .
Cheers,
JDB
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Thanks for all the advice guys!
I'm at your mercy as my entire career to date turbine engines fixed wing birds!
Currently pricing up a "family" holiday to Florida which might, purely by coincidence, be in close proximity to an EASA heli school!
JDB, a very kind offer which I'd love to take you up on! I'll have to pick some holes in my schedule, just finished a 3 month secondment in EDI which would have been much more convenient.
I'm at your mercy as my entire career to date turbine engines fixed wing birds!
Currently pricing up a "family" holiday to Florida which might, purely by coincidence, be in close proximity to an EASA heli school!
JDB, a very kind offer which I'd love to take you up on! I'll have to pick some holes in my schedule, just finished a 3 month secondment in EDI which would have been much more convenient.
If you're going to Florida then look at Cloud9 Helicopters.
They're well versed in international students and won't rip you off.
I did my Aussie to FAA ATP there earlier this year when I moved to the US.
They're well versed in international students and won't rip you off.
I did my Aussie to FAA ATP there earlier this year when I moved to the US.
