Aviation Books.....Must Read Tomes!
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There has been talk of turning it into a movie for years now. A friend of mine has a brother who works in Hollywood, and even as a lowly spark/SFX bloke he has heard that old chestnut getting bandied around for over 10 years. At least one major studio has done an evaluation on it, or so he claims.
(he is usually pretty accurate in what he tells us when home, so?)
(he is usually pretty accurate in what he tells us when home, so?)
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I'll second LOW LEVEL HELL by Hugh Mills as an excellent read. 'Chickenhawk' may or may not be suspect, but it's also a great book.
A few others I've read recently:- 'Snake Pilot' by Randy Zahn, 'Taking Fire' by Ron Alexandre (very good) and a fixed wing read 'When Thunder rolled' by Ed Rasimus (F105 over North Vietnam).
Recommend all of them.
A few others I've read recently:- 'Snake Pilot' by Randy Zahn, 'Taking Fire' by Ron Alexandre (very good) and a fixed wing read 'When Thunder rolled' by Ed Rasimus (F105 over North Vietnam).
Recommend all of them.
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Unfortunately I am guessing that the studio that did the "evaluation" probably bought the "option". They will then hold that option "just in case" until another studio or independant asks to buy the option for a much larger sum than the original price.. Happens to thousands of books...
Fingers crossed someone very rich in the industry sees it's worth in the box office as a prety cool action flick.. any ideas for the lead??
Fingers crossed someone very rich in the industry sees it's worth in the box office as a prety cool action flick.. any ideas for the lead??
Iwo Jima....one of three Marines killed in combat during WWII died at Iwo.
More Marines died taking Iwo than the Japanese lost defending it.
If the same casualty rate was applied to Iraq.....we would have gone through two and one half Marine Corps.
If we broke down "Chickenhawk" into individual accounts....it would take several Blue Star's full of pilots....but supposedly that is the truth of the matter. The author is reputed to have "borrowed" most of the action sequences per those that were there at the same time.
Good yarn not withstanding that.
More Marines died taking Iwo than the Japanese lost defending it.
If the same casualty rate was applied to Iraq.....we would have gone through two and one half Marine Corps.
If we broke down "Chickenhawk" into individual accounts....it would take several Blue Star's full of pilots....but supposedly that is the truth of the matter. The author is reputed to have "borrowed" most of the action sequences per those that were there at the same time.
Good yarn not withstanding that.
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What happened to the Edit ability of original headlines, anyway, I have a question ,
I am threeparts through the Chickenhawk and find some of the comments rather difficult to agree with, such as
Chopping branches or boughs from trees, surely that would completly spoil your day as far as rotor blades go, considering the materials available from the 60s that would have made such blades,
I realise that a conflict or war situation would be involved and performance and load would be exceeded many times if some nasty was chucking lead at you, but is it really possible to exceed such limits to such extents even in the UH1.
Having met Sasless and friend from Wesham I would be interested to hear what they have to say about such comments. oor other UH1 drivers
Not to form any argument but just to understand if written comments are , or could be true!
Peter R-B
VFR
I am threeparts through the Chickenhawk and find some of the comments rather difficult to agree with, such as
Chopping branches or boughs from trees, surely that would completly spoil your day as far as rotor blades go, considering the materials available from the 60s that would have made such blades,
I realise that a conflict or war situation would be involved and performance and load would be exceeded many times if some nasty was chucking lead at you, but is it really possible to exceed such limits to such extents even in the UH1.
Having met Sasless and friend from Wesham I would be interested to hear what they have to say about such comments. oor other UH1 drivers
Not to form any argument but just to understand if written comments are , or could be true!
Peter R-B
VFR
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Sgtfrog
There's a good thread on the Huey here.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=184078
Whole lot of information and a PIREP about the Huey in the picture posted by Bravo73 from about posts #300 forward.
B.
There's a good thread on the Huey here.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=184078
Whole lot of information and a PIREP about the Huey in the picture posted by Bravo73 from about posts #300 forward.
B.
Hover Holes....places in the triple canopy jungle where one cannot hover vertically but must maneuver around limbs, tree snags, and stumps. Leafy green tree limbs cut nicely but bamboo ruins the blade. The downward airflow from the rotor system sometimes "pulled" the tree limbs down to cause a decrease in size of the open area.
Using "hover holes" required the full crew....gunners to call directions to the pilots....one really learned to trust the crew in back and allow them to "direct" the aircraft away from the obstacles. I can recall more than a few occasions where it took a couple of tries to get out without hitting tree limbs that would have caused real problems. Just think of a "rat's maze" and that is what it was like sometimes.
Yes....chopping your way in and/or out happened during Vietnam Operations...but usually only in true emergencies such as evacuating critically wounded soldiers or rescuing down air crew.
The Huey blade is pretty durable....as is the Chinook blade.
Using "hover holes" required the full crew....gunners to call directions to the pilots....one really learned to trust the crew in back and allow them to "direct" the aircraft away from the obstacles. I can recall more than a few occasions where it took a couple of tries to get out without hitting tree limbs that would have caused real problems. Just think of a "rat's maze" and that is what it was like sometimes.
Yes....chopping your way in and/or out happened during Vietnam Operations...but usually only in true emergencies such as evacuating critically wounded soldiers or rescuing down air crew.
The Huey blade is pretty durable....as is the Chinook blade.
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PeterRB,
I can attest to weight/performance exceedance as daily occurrences and tree/foliage chopping as perhaps weekly. When life is at stake, and the mission is a tough one, the machine is a tool, and you use it to the absolute edge of its capability.
The Cobras I flew (AH-1G with T53-L13 engines) were MGW at 9500 pounds. I was the unit IP, and once did a weight and balance on each of the 9 aircraft we had (6 flyable any given day). The lightest one on the flightline, mission ready with crew, was 10,700 pounds with 1200 pounds of gas on board (about 2 hours to burnout, standard for our unit.) I went to the unit commander, and told him we had to fix this. He told me to do it, and just let him know what I left out, "the bullets or the gas!" Naturally, the issue stopped there. We changed rotor heads every 300 hours (2 months) and engines at about the same rate. The typical performance limited hover was less than 6 inches at initial takeoff. On a windless day over dirt, we had to bounce the aircraft to get through translational lift, which took about 100 yards of skipping and thumping. Once at a refuel point called Hawk Hill in I corps, I nearly clipped the barbed wire concertina that was 150 yards down a slight hill during takeoff, the wire was a standard roll, perhaps 30 inches in diameter. 30 inches altitude in 150 yards!
Cutting down small trees and brush were not done daily, but if a unit was in distress and that was what the AC saw on short final, having already made the approach (short final before the hover was the most exposed part of the landing) you MUST pick up the guys, or they might shoot you down if you chickened out. The Huey blades had stout aluminum spars and were capable of taking down a 2 inch branch with relatively cosmetic damage, maybe a wrinkle on the abrasion strip, and more often a tear on the skin below and aft of the strip. Those blades were changed that night, and ended up as bar rails at the club, or walkways to the latrine and showers. Some units could pave the area around the maintenance shed with old blades, literally. Too bad I didn't know to buy Bell stock then!
The rule that we followed was something the the military has forgotten in this period of unrelenting semi-war on the cheap, it was the same rule the air forces used in WWII. If the machine brought you home, that was enough, period. The bombs you dropped and the gas you burned were gone, too, so if the machine had to be used up like a pair of flashlight batteries, too bad. The service knew it, and expected it, the mission was everything. In the battle of Britain, the RAF ended the battle with more fighters than they started with, (but far fewer pilots) so machine was merely a tool.
A landing craft was worth 5 trips to the beach, max. A Spitfire engine in the Battle of Britain was tossed at 10 hours. A B-17 was routinely flown at 20% over max gross weight, and tossed at 10 to 20 missions, if it made it that far. My fathers unit, the 94th BG at Bury St. Edmunds, Norwich, launched 25 bombers on a typical maximum effort mission, and lost about 273 Fortresses during the war. That means that in 2 years, the unit was entirely wiped out and reformed more than 10 times!
Sacrifice in war should start with the machine, and then maybe go to the crew, as a last resort.
I can attest to weight/performance exceedance as daily occurrences and tree/foliage chopping as perhaps weekly. When life is at stake, and the mission is a tough one, the machine is a tool, and you use it to the absolute edge of its capability.
The Cobras I flew (AH-1G with T53-L13 engines) were MGW at 9500 pounds. I was the unit IP, and once did a weight and balance on each of the 9 aircraft we had (6 flyable any given day). The lightest one on the flightline, mission ready with crew, was 10,700 pounds with 1200 pounds of gas on board (about 2 hours to burnout, standard for our unit.) I went to the unit commander, and told him we had to fix this. He told me to do it, and just let him know what I left out, "the bullets or the gas!" Naturally, the issue stopped there. We changed rotor heads every 300 hours (2 months) and engines at about the same rate. The typical performance limited hover was less than 6 inches at initial takeoff. On a windless day over dirt, we had to bounce the aircraft to get through translational lift, which took about 100 yards of skipping and thumping. Once at a refuel point called Hawk Hill in I corps, I nearly clipped the barbed wire concertina that was 150 yards down a slight hill during takeoff, the wire was a standard roll, perhaps 30 inches in diameter. 30 inches altitude in 150 yards!
Cutting down small trees and brush were not done daily, but if a unit was in distress and that was what the AC saw on short final, having already made the approach (short final before the hover was the most exposed part of the landing) you MUST pick up the guys, or they might shoot you down if you chickened out. The Huey blades had stout aluminum spars and were capable of taking down a 2 inch branch with relatively cosmetic damage, maybe a wrinkle on the abrasion strip, and more often a tear on the skin below and aft of the strip. Those blades were changed that night, and ended up as bar rails at the club, or walkways to the latrine and showers. Some units could pave the area around the maintenance shed with old blades, literally. Too bad I didn't know to buy Bell stock then!
The rule that we followed was something the the military has forgotten in this period of unrelenting semi-war on the cheap, it was the same rule the air forces used in WWII. If the machine brought you home, that was enough, period. The bombs you dropped and the gas you burned were gone, too, so if the machine had to be used up like a pair of flashlight batteries, too bad. The service knew it, and expected it, the mission was everything. In the battle of Britain, the RAF ended the battle with more fighters than they started with, (but far fewer pilots) so machine was merely a tool.
A landing craft was worth 5 trips to the beach, max. A Spitfire engine in the Battle of Britain was tossed at 10 hours. A B-17 was routinely flown at 20% over max gross weight, and tossed at 10 to 20 missions, if it made it that far. My fathers unit, the 94th BG at Bury St. Edmunds, Norwich, launched 25 bombers on a typical maximum effort mission, and lost about 273 Fortresses during the war. That means that in 2 years, the unit was entirely wiped out and reformed more than 10 times!
Sacrifice in war should start with the machine, and then maybe go to the crew, as a last resort.
Nick,
During the Cambodia Incursion in 1970 we had CH-47A model Chinooks with Lycoming T-55-L7C engines......SOP external loads were limited to 8,000 pounds for us.....6,500 pounds for 1st AirCav Chinooks.
We burned off a thousand pounds of fuel on the first 8,000 pound load then started with double loads. One count of 105mm Pro Joes showed us at 16,800 pounds. There were times we argued about how to clear the three foot high barbed wire fence around the resupply area.
It was possible to do a running takeoff with a 3/4 ton weapons carrier inside and one on the sling....the trick was to have a guy steer the external vehicle until we got ETL then he jumped off.
The major trick was landing....invaribly the front wheels turned to one side or the other during flight and timing was of the essence to allow the vehicle to touch down simultaneously with the release of the cargo hook. Watching the runaway wagon with a posse chasing it was good fun however.
During the Cambodia Incursion in 1970 we had CH-47A model Chinooks with Lycoming T-55-L7C engines......SOP external loads were limited to 8,000 pounds for us.....6,500 pounds for 1st AirCav Chinooks.
We burned off a thousand pounds of fuel on the first 8,000 pound load then started with double loads. One count of 105mm Pro Joes showed us at 16,800 pounds. There were times we argued about how to clear the three foot high barbed wire fence around the resupply area.
It was possible to do a running takeoff with a 3/4 ton weapons carrier inside and one on the sling....the trick was to have a guy steer the external vehicle until we got ETL then he jumped off.
The major trick was landing....invaribly the front wheels turned to one side or the other during flight and timing was of the essence to allow the vehicle to touch down simultaneously with the release of the cargo hook. Watching the runaway wagon with a posse chasing it was good fun however.
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Nick and Sasless,
Your answers as ever fill the void that many of us have, thank you for your really concise and well explained answers, and like many I feel humbled that you are prepared to give us this sort of background detail.
Never the less " Chickenhawk" is exceptional in giving much detail but just enough to make you understand what is happening, like I said in my opening post " its almost like being in the jump seat!"
My regards
Peter R-B
Vfrpiltpb
Sasless, I met you about 2 years ago when you came up to the Ribble valley to look at the "Private Army Hardware"
Your answers as ever fill the void that many of us have, thank you for your really concise and well explained answers, and like many I feel humbled that you are prepared to give us this sort of background detail.
Never the less " Chickenhawk" is exceptional in giving much detail but just enough to make you understand what is happening, like I said in my opening post " its almost like being in the jump seat!"
My regards
Peter R-B
Vfrpiltpb
Sasless, I met you about 2 years ago when you came up to the Ribble valley to look at the "Private Army Hardware"
Peter,
That was a very memorable day......what an amazing Toy Box! I loved hearing the old radial engine on the SP Howitzer! I very much appreciated the visit and the hospitality I was shown. I have seen nothing in this country that could begin to compare.
That was a very memorable day......what an amazing Toy Box! I loved hearing the old radial engine on the SP Howitzer! I very much appreciated the visit and the hospitality I was shown. I have seen nothing in this country that could begin to compare.
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Try reading "In the Company of Heroes" by Michael J Durant. A good insight to the Special Operations Squadron community and his capture in Sommalia in 1993.
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"In the Company of Heroes"
I am positive that if I was to fly in those sorts of situations where at hover your T/R disc presents a perfect target for anything longer than a foot or so, at any fair speed, that I would work out how to have the power off in a blink. Just my two bobs worth - and experience of T/R failure, in the hover.
"Armed Conflict" by James Newton DFC was a good read. Iraq War, 847 sqdn I think.
On a similar vein I have just noted that the Australian Dynasties program - an ox ABC event on thursday PM - that the Leahy Brothers from New Guionea will feature. Had the pleasure of being seated beside one of the family at a wedding in Brisbane a few years ago. I think he was a knighted gentleman, certainly he had lots to do with aviation in that country, both rotary and the other.
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"Black Hawk Down" by Mark Bowden was the book immortalized as "Black Hawk Down." "In the Company of Heroes" is the autobiography of the US pilot who was downed and held captive for a while.
Durant explains that the "centrifugal" force caused by the tail rotor failure prevented the co-pilot from reaching up and cutting the power levers (mounted on the overhead in the Blackhawk). It is an interesting point that you raise, though. They knew they'd been hit near the TR, so it is surprising the PNF wasn't "covering" the power levers just in case... Hindsight's 20/20.
Durant explains that the "centrifugal" force caused by the tail rotor failure prevented the co-pilot from reaching up and cutting the power levers (mounted on the overhead in the Blackhawk). It is an interesting point that you raise, though. They knew they'd been hit near the TR, so it is surprising the PNF wasn't "covering" the power levers just in case... Hindsight's 20/20.