Are Police Helicopters Really Necessary?
Thread Starter
Are Police Helicopters Really Necessary?
Quick Point....this system is far more cost effective and has greater over all capability in solving crime than any Police Helicopter Operation.
The Helicopter does have an advantage in Hot Pursuit events perhaps but is that advantage worth the cost?
I see a combination of both the Helicopter and this Program as being the best of both Worlds.
Is there something similar in operation in the UK?
Would Air Traffic Rules prohibit this kind of operation in say....London Metropolitan Area?
https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2...-surveillance/
The Helicopter does have an advantage in Hot Pursuit events perhaps but is that advantage worth the cost?
I see a combination of both the Helicopter and this Program as being the best of both Worlds.
Is there something similar in operation in the UK?
Would Air Traffic Rules prohibit this kind of operation in say....London Metropolitan Area?
https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2...-surveillance/
Well, interesting technologie
But police helicopters not only look...
Just beeing there brings people to call the police about things (people) they have seen, criminals, which hide, when the helicopter comes clear and so on.
Additional FLIR-Systems allow to search for missing people and for criminals - which often couldn´t be seen with the mark 1 eyeball - or an image, taken out of that height.
And with data issues - the questin is, wheather the public will accept such an observation...
But police helicopters not only look...
Just beeing there brings people to call the police about things (people) they have seen, criminals, which hide, when the helicopter comes clear and so on.
Additional FLIR-Systems allow to search for missing people and for criminals - which often couldn´t be seen with the mark 1 eyeball - or an image, taken out of that height.
And with data issues - the questin is, wheather the public will accept such an observation...
Tightgit
To answer your question! No. When weather or serviceability interferes, day to day policing may go on without air support, so irrespective of the technology you highlight. Policing does not depend on police helicopters.
Whether a fixed wing is a better platform that a helicopter depends on a number of things such as terrain, environment and the type of tasking you want the aircraft to do. That small fixed wing aircraft are cheaper than helicopters seems pretty incontrovertible!
In England and Wales, the police have decided that fixed wing aircraft have an important part to play in providing police air support, so they are pretty much in agreement with your final contention. All that remains is to decide whether the equipment provides sufficient evidence to be used as a primary tool. or whether it is of a quality that can only be used as intelligence to assist in the solving of crime (as appears to be the case with the description of the system in the piece you highlight). Perhaps the biggest issue is that highlighted by Flying Bull. At the moment, most of what we do is targeted to a specific incident, There is an distinct element of continuous surveillance with the system you highlight (one might argue that with the preponderance of CCTV and ANPR cameras in the UK we already have that). However, that 'Big Brother' effect does appear to interfere with the idea of policing by consent! (unless of course the general public, should they ever be asked agree to a system like that being put into operation).
Whether a fixed wing is a better platform that a helicopter depends on a number of things such as terrain, environment and the type of tasking you want the aircraft to do. That small fixed wing aircraft are cheaper than helicopters seems pretty incontrovertible!
In England and Wales, the police have decided that fixed wing aircraft have an important part to play in providing police air support, so they are pretty much in agreement with your final contention. All that remains is to decide whether the equipment provides sufficient evidence to be used as a primary tool. or whether it is of a quality that can only be used as intelligence to assist in the solving of crime (as appears to be the case with the description of the system in the piece you highlight). Perhaps the biggest issue is that highlighted by Flying Bull. At the moment, most of what we do is targeted to a specific incident, There is an distinct element of continuous surveillance with the system you highlight (one might argue that with the preponderance of CCTV and ANPR cameras in the UK we already have that). However, that 'Big Brother' effect does appear to interfere with the idea of policing by consent! (unless of course the general public, should they ever be asked agree to a system like that being put into operation).
Nigerian In Law
During Vs After ?
Sas,
I think I see where you're coming from, but apart from events known of in advance (e.g. the announcement of the verdict in the Freddie Gray trial), and given the extremely wide sweep of this technology, wouldn't this be better used for footage obtained as evidence after an incident/crime has occurred ? It would take a huge number of analysts poring over live footage which would have to be broken down into manageable zones, where most of the time nothing is happening to see someone doing something bad. Then they call the appropriate emergency service who dispatch the nearest available resource. All this would be cost averse and not very timely surely ?
Police helicopters with human (i.e. common sense, instinct etc) input can be and are proven to have been extremely effective in apprehending criminals during or immediately following such an event. Car chases, people hiding in undergrowth/on rooftops, cannabis factories (heat signature), drug dealers in the act of plying their trade to mention just a few.
Just my two penneth.
NEO
I think I see where you're coming from, but apart from events known of in advance (e.g. the announcement of the verdict in the Freddie Gray trial), and given the extremely wide sweep of this technology, wouldn't this be better used for footage obtained as evidence after an incident/crime has occurred ? It would take a huge number of analysts poring over live footage which would have to be broken down into manageable zones, where most of the time nothing is happening to see someone doing something bad. Then they call the appropriate emergency service who dispatch the nearest available resource. All this would be cost averse and not very timely surely ?
Police helicopters with human (i.e. common sense, instinct etc) input can be and are proven to have been extremely effective in apprehending criminals during or immediately following such an event. Car chases, people hiding in undergrowth/on rooftops, cannabis factories (heat signature), drug dealers in the act of plying their trade to mention just a few.
Just my two penneth.
NEO
Thread Starter
In the video....two guys walking in a parking lot were trackable by the System.
If you had a Missing Person....it would seem possible to track that individual from the last know time and place with some accuracy.
The example given of following people/vehicles from the location/time of a crime forwards makes sense as does back tracking before the crime occurred. The Back Tracking certainly is something current investigative work often cannot or does not do.
Intelligence gathering is what would be the strong point to this system in my opinion.
The Police Helicopter is too visible for that purpose.
As to Search and Rescue....Active Pursuit....the Helicopter with a FLIR and good FLIR Operator is hard to beat. Been there and done that myself but I understand the weaknesses of that system too.
All of these systems have weaknesses....so it is more a cost/effectiveness issue with the best option being a combination of several but plainly Cost drives what combination could be afforded.
If you had a Missing Person....it would seem possible to track that individual from the last know time and place with some accuracy.
The example given of following people/vehicles from the location/time of a crime forwards makes sense as does back tracking before the crime occurred. The Back Tracking certainly is something current investigative work often cannot or does not do.
Intelligence gathering is what would be the strong point to this system in my opinion.
The Police Helicopter is too visible for that purpose.
As to Search and Rescue....Active Pursuit....the Helicopter with a FLIR and good FLIR Operator is hard to beat. Been there and done that myself but I understand the weaknesses of that system too.
All of these systems have weaknesses....so it is more a cost/effectiveness issue with the best option being a combination of several but plainly Cost drives what combination could be afforded.
Sounds like you were with the rwong force(s), Wageslave. I couldn't have hoped for a better transition to civvy street after 28 years Military; I saw smart, joined-up thinking at virtually every level of the Forces/Constabularies on whose behalf I flew around the country. The occasional dipstick, sure - but overall I was impressed by the quality of the people who, with our consent, keep an eye out for us.
Officers aboard the aircraft who knew their patch really made a difference too, as evidenced by a car theft in my first set of shifts. On hearing what type of car had just been stolen, an Observer directed me to fly to a certain address where we watched said car arriving nearby. Not sure that we have retained such knowledge and skills with the advent of NPAS, but as I'm no longer involved I have no current evidence.
..."damn things" and "Wageslave" make it sound like you might even have been on the rwong career path, too.
Officers aboard the aircraft who knew their patch really made a difference too, as evidenced by a car theft in my first set of shifts. On hearing what type of car had just been stolen, an Observer directed me to fly to a certain address where we watched said car arriving nearby. Not sure that we have retained such knowledge and skills with the advent of NPAS, but as I'm no longer involved I have no current evidence.
..."damn things" and "Wageslave" make it sound like you might even have been on the rwong career path, too.
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there are of course dumb criminals, but not all. It's only effective when airborne, they will change their pattern, wait for bad weather, look for weaknesses. Law enforcements biggest mistake has been to declare it. Now the bad guys know. Just like we have with all our silly bottom feeder tv shows, we have declared our capability. Now they react to that. Fixed wing in the UK will struggle, because of all the same reasons it struggled before.
T & B, Gem. I may well have been with the wrong force - in fact I know I was, but your smug, self-appointed ability to leap to assumptions without a shred of supporting evidence or knowledge whatsoever makes it very clear to me that you are indeed well exposed to Police ops. It's a trait that is far, far too familiar to miss.
I am actually a great supporter of Police Aviation as long as it is not populated with the thugs, psychophants, reg spotters, arse-crawlers and career incompetents that made up most of the unit I was on and I doubt that today many, if any of them are. But back then not every unit was a paragon of freakishly convenient local knowledge as yours evidently was. I suppose back then Police Aviation hadn't had the benefit of your 28 years military expertise to show them how to be honest, decent, competent coppers, not to mention airborne observers. (!)
I am actually a great supporter of Police Aviation as long as it is not populated with the thugs, psychophants, reg spotters, arse-crawlers and career incompetents that made up most of the unit I was on and I doubt that today many, if any of them are. But back then not every unit was a paragon of freakishly convenient local knowledge as yours evidently was. I suppose back then Police Aviation hadn't had the benefit of your 28 years military expertise to show them how to be honest, decent, competent coppers, not to mention airborne observers. (!)
Last edited by Wageslave; 24th Aug 2016 at 22:14.
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Sounds like you were with the rwong force(s), Wageslave. I couldn't have hoped for a better transition to civvy street after 28 years Military; I saw smart, joined-up thinking at virtually every level of the Forces/Constabularies on whose behalf I flew around the country. The occasional dipstick, sure - but overall I was impressed by the quality of the people who, with our consent, keep an eye out for us.
Nigerian In Law
WTF ?
Wageslave,
Where did that vitriol emanate from ? I've just read and then for good measure re-read the entire thread and can't see anything to provoke such a personal attack ?
Regardless, thanks for the input; Sasless was just starting a debate ?!
NEO
Where did that vitriol emanate from ? I've just read and then for good measure re-read the entire thread and can't see anything to provoke such a personal attack ?
Regardless, thanks for the input; Sasless was just starting a debate ?!
NEO
Last edited by Nigerian Expat Outlaw; 24th Aug 2016 at 22:57.
Its a pity some of the smug buggers here evidently never had to work for a sloppy outfit and clearly don't take the time to consider what life on the other side was like. How thoughtful of them.
NEO.Your rhetorical question cannot go unanswered. What right does anyone have to question one's "career path" in such a snide and critical manner when it was the circumstances around it and beyond your control or influence that were at fault? That's exceptionally unpleasant as well as irrational.
NEO.Your rhetorical question cannot go unanswered. What right does anyone have to question one's "career path" in such a snide and critical manner when it was the circumstances around it and beyond your control or influence that were at fault? That's exceptionally unpleasant as well as irrational.
It can't see through clouds.
It is less effective at altitudes below 8000ft.
So police helicopters will be needed to fill in the gaps.
In any event police helicopters offer the high resolution and frame rate needed for live command and control.
Yes it is feasible for a wide area equiped fixed wing to be also equipped with a narrow view 30fps stabilised video camera and down link.
But since it is flying at 8000ft rather than 1000ft the target image will always be if a lower resolution for a given lens and made slightly worse by increase in atmospheric pollution due to increase distance between subject and lens.
Mickjoebill
It is less effective at altitudes below 8000ft.
So police helicopters will be needed to fill in the gaps.
In any event police helicopters offer the high resolution and frame rate needed for live command and control.
Yes it is feasible for a wide area equiped fixed wing to be also equipped with a narrow view 30fps stabilised video camera and down link.
But since it is flying at 8000ft rather than 1000ft the target image will always be if a lower resolution for a given lens and made slightly worse by increase in atmospheric pollution due to increase distance between subject and lens.
Mickjoebill
Last edited by mickjoebill; 25th Aug 2016 at 03:04.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Are Police Helicopters Really Necessary?
Quick Point....this system is far more cost effective and has greater over all capability in solving crime than any Police Helicopter Operation.
Quick Point....this system is far more cost effective and has greater over all capability in solving crime than any Police Helicopter Operation.
However if missing people could be found easier .......
Hmm - seem to have hit a nerve. Certainly didn't end up on a unit like Wageslave's. Had the pleasure/privilege of working full-time for 1 metropolitan force, then as a floater covering 5 other forces at various times including all mainland UK countries. I think if I'd found myself somewhere like WS then I'd have walked - as I did from the one very-well-paid but utterly incompetent overseas unit for whom I flew. The closest I've come to a wrong career path - I did something about it, though. Might've hit me in the wallet but it was worth it to get away and try somewhere that didn't have me surrounded by
Still can't see - after re-reading previous submission - where I made any smug assumptions though. Just commented on what WS had put in black-and-white. Certainly wouldn't (and didn't) claim that >2 decades of military time equipped me
- where did that come from? As for 'freakishly convenient' local knowlege - that was brought into the mix by people who'd policed their community for many years before joining the unit, and was appreciated by all except the habit-bound criminals who, for example, only knew how to steal one particular type of car.
Back to the OP - Sasless, one attribute that helicopters bring to the mix is crime prevention; a visible/audible police presence is a clear deterrent to both opportunity- and premeditated- illegal activity. The system you describe has its uses after a crime has been committed; better by far to stop the crime from ever happening.
thugs, psychophants, reg spotters, arse-crawlers and career incompetents
to show them how to be honest, decent, competent coppers
Back to the OP - Sasless, one attribute that helicopters bring to the mix is crime prevention; a visible/audible police presence is a clear deterrent to both opportunity- and premeditated- illegal activity. The system you describe has its uses after a crime has been committed; better by far to stop the crime from ever happening.
Thread Starter
How does one document "Preventing A Crime"?
It is easy to document investigating a Crime after it happens.
Police are very good at showing up after the Crime has been committed.
Unless your Perps are a lot dimmer than ours....they can look around and listen a bit and know where the Plod's Chopper isn't.
It is easy to document investigating a Crime after it happens.
Police are very good at showing up after the Crime has been committed.
Unless your Perps are a lot dimmer than ours....they can look around and listen a bit and know where the Plod's Chopper isn't.
