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End of the 225?

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End of the 225?

Old 30th Jul 2016, 15:41
  #261 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
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If the cracks are not to far propagated, I am in for the tail rotors to resell them as large ceiling fans.

Oh,
looking at the Dutch weather forecast,
Local market is limited for upcoming weeks.
So much for my summer Holiday (job)

Cheers SLB
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Old 30th Jul 2016, 15:49
  #262 (permalink)  
 
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Use the main rotors for night clubs.
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Old 30th Jul 2016, 16:09
  #263 (permalink)  
 
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I have NO intention to push SASless out of his business

Sorry back to topic
SLB
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Old 31st Jul 2016, 05:16
  #264 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Fareastdriver View Post
Use the main rotors for night clubs.
.... since an S-92 one would definitely drown out all the music.
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Old 31st Jul 2016, 13:33
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But there was a song written about them you may remember...."Good Vibrations"!
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Old 31st Jul 2016, 17:54
  #266 (permalink)  
 
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Where now

Originally Posted by SASless View Post
I am wondering what the 225 MGB and rotor head weighs.....as I am interested in buying every one in the Inventory for sale to metal recycling operations!

The airframes would make nice additions to Kiddy playgrounds or perhaps storage sheds in back gardens.
The serious point though is while CHC etc can throw in the towell using C11, the lessors will seek to recover some of their losses and there a relatively large military fleets wanting to use their machines for 20+ years. AH don't have the option of walking away. They will have to fix or settle.
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Old 1st Aug 2016, 00:11
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Originally Posted by birmingham View Post
The serious point though is while CHC etc can throw in the towell using C11, the lessors will seek to recover some of their losses and there a relatively large military fleets wanting to use their machines for 20+ years. AH don't have the option of walking away. They will have to fix or settle.


What kind of a fix that would be both trustworthy and economic is possible?
It seems like squaring the circle.
Gearboxes are difficult to make very reliable and these 225 accidents are after moderate service hours. Replacing parts after 1000 hours might solve the problem but destroy the economic viability of the type. The slump in demand just accentuates the problem.
What do our industry pros think can be done?
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Old 1st Aug 2016, 07:54
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The 225 as a type for offshore is dead. While it may get airworthy again in due course (other customers are available and still want to use it), the normal offshore workers don't want it, certainly in it's former core market (North Sea).

This is a technical problem (so it seems) which can be fixed with an emotional response which cannot.
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Old 1st Aug 2016, 08:53
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2x L2/225s being road transported

So, I was on my morning driving commute this morning and what do I see?

2x L2s or 225s (both were plastic/environmental wrapped and I couldn't get close enough to tell whether they were a 4 or 5 blade main rotor head) being road transported.

I am in far northern Australia and this was taken on the south bound side of the Stuart Highway. The Stuart Highway runs from Darwin in the north to Port Augusta in the south (for a total highway length of 2,834 km (or 1,761 mi / 1,574 nm)).

These L2s/225s would likely have been Darwin based and given that I encountered them only 300 km south of there, they have a long road trip ahead of them (thousands of km) to get to wherever they're going.

Somehow I don't think the environmental wrap will be coming off them for quite a while.

I have attached a very shaky photo, I apologise for the quality (or lack thereof), it was the best I could get at short notice.

- Martin
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Old 1st Aug 2016, 09:38
  #270 (permalink)  
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Scandal

I agree with nowherespecial, except that the mechanical problem with the gearbox is 'probably'.... and that's the big problem. Probably isn't good enough.

When I kicked off this thread I did not expect that it really would be the end of the 225 and it won't be completely. However, as has been said, I think for North Sea Offshore it is the end.

The big scandal in all this is that Airbus Helicopters or key members of their team got some important things very wrong early on. This was either deliberate or a big mistake but they had roadshows peddling their disinformation both inside and outside their company. This is bad and shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the business they are in IMHO. They had no regard for the people involved in the accident and a disregard for their own responsibilities and I hope the people who made these errors or took the decisions get 'retrained'!

My other hope from this is that operators and commentators learn from the experience and take vested party's opinions with a certain degree of cynicism until the facts emerge.
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Old 1st Aug 2016, 11:57
  #271 (permalink)  
 
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Martin Baker, aircraft will be 225's no L2's in Australia, 20 x EC225's in Australia, 3 x Bond, 8 x CHC and 9 x Bristow.
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Old 1st Aug 2016, 17:40
  #272 (permalink)  
 
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Unhappy

Originally Posted by Hompy View Post

The big scandal in all this is that Airbus Helicopters or key members of their team got some important things very wrong early on.
They had no regard for the people involved in the accident and a disregard for their own responsibilities and I hope the people who made these errors or took the decisions get 'retrained'!

My other hope from this is that operators and commentators learn from the experience and take vested party's opinions with a certain degree of cynicism until the facts emerge.

These failures reflect the excessive deference given to the financial aspects of decisions by industry management at the expense of operational considerations.
It may be the consequence of mergers. When leaders become clerks in an enlarged enterprise, their measurable responsibility shrinks to the financial results. There is no good ongoing driver for product quality/safety, aspects which were central to decision making when the enterprise survival was dependent on those elements being properly weighted.
Perhaps in future, Airbus Industry will take a leaf from General Motors' book, they split management roles into a 'car guy' president and a 'finance guy' chairman. That allowed at least some engineering aspects to reach top management. Of course, considering GM went bankrupt, their solution has its critics.
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Old 1st Aug 2016, 18:11
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Not just a general motors thing. Quite a few European companies in a range of industries split the engineering management into management and technical streams or similar. However, this rarely, if ever, happens in the UK where we tend to be bullied by armies of accountants.
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Old 1st Aug 2016, 20:40
  #274 (permalink)  
 
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Shame it has come to this. It is sad seeing what should be an excellent aircraft being shipped to the knacker's yard.
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Old 1st Aug 2016, 21:14
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Is it an excellent aircraft in reality?



Originally Posted by roundwego View Post
Shame it has come to this. It is sad seeing what should be an excellent aircraft being shipped to the knacker's yard.
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Old 1st Aug 2016, 22:48
  #276 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SASless View Post
Is it an excellent aircraft in reality?
Yes. Or rather it was before the rotor heads kept falling off.
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Old 2nd Aug 2016, 02:25
  #277 (permalink)  
 
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All the helicopters involved in fatal accidents in the North Sea seem to captained by middle-aged european men but I don't expect them to be replaced by 20 year old SE asian women any time soon.

This is maybe because the middle-aged white men are doing nearly all the work and it's therefore not news and no reason to ignore hundreds of thousands of flying hours without a fatal accident.
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Old 2nd Aug 2016, 05:50
  #278 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by etudiant View Post
What kind of a fix that would be both trustworthy and economic is possible? It seems like squaring the circle. Gearboxes are difficult to make very reliable and these 225 accidents are after moderate service hours. Replacing parts after 1000 hours might solve the problem but destroy the economic viability of the type. The slump in demand just accentuates the problem. What do our industry pros think can be done?
There are over 100 aircraft that AH will need to fix. EuroCopter would not likely have had the financial resources to survive this problem. But the new owners Airbus does have the financial resources to make the repairs required on the aircraft to return them to service with some new customer. The significant cost of fixing the aircraft is preferable to the financial damage to Airbus Helicopter's reputation by scrapping them.

Also consider that AH intended to keep the EC225 model in production for another decade. And its replacement model, the X6, won't be ready for several years.
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Old 2nd Aug 2016, 06:30
  #279 (permalink)  
 
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How much for a gearbox?

So just as a hypothetical, what is the going price for, let's say for argument's sake, a brand new main gearbox for the 225? Just after a rough order of magnitude; 500,000? 2,000,000?

If brand new ones don't currently exist, then how much to buy a newly overhauled MGB?

Just trying to get an idea of the starting point that AH would be up for.

I appreciate that any potentially significant redesign would involve design, certification and tooling costs. This could very well be a "how long is a piece of string" type question, but just after a starting point.

- Martin
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Old 2nd Aug 2016, 10:20
  #280 (permalink)  
 
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Martin,

Between $2-3m for a brand new one. Most of the time they don;t cost that much as it's done on a 'hand an old one back and we'll give you a renewed one' basis, bit like an old soda stream or bbq gas bottle so the net is $1.5-2m.
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