Do you ever think about the Danger Involved?
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The Danger Involved
Has any of you ever thought of quitting flying helicopters because of the higher danger involved in respect to say airplanes or a regular land job?
Please admit it, flying helicopters, doing other than say, VIP, ENG, etc. is more dangerous than average jobs.
In 1999 I left helicopters to go fly Beechjets for a fractional program, there I realized that the difference in safety is enormous, in the 1 year I was there, I was never in a situation where I was anything more than having fun, or plain bored while flying, I never felt there was much I could do, or not do, that could seriously endanger myself, on the other side . . .
In helicopters over the past few years I've had a couple of close calls, even being extra careful and thinking eveything twice, there are just some things that are out of your control.
One thing I will never forget is an accident few years back where a Bell 412 was brought down by fireworks from a fair that was below, 8 people died and the pilot was as carefull as there are, I have more examples but what's the use, you know already.
Anybody who's flown helicopters for a while is missing a friend or two today, this gets me thinking sometimes, after all I've never met an airline pilot or corporate pilot who feels this way.
Please share your thoughts/experiences/opinions.
Please admit it, flying helicopters, doing other than say, VIP, ENG, etc. is more dangerous than average jobs.
In 1999 I left helicopters to go fly Beechjets for a fractional program, there I realized that the difference in safety is enormous, in the 1 year I was there, I was never in a situation where I was anything more than having fun, or plain bored while flying, I never felt there was much I could do, or not do, that could seriously endanger myself, on the other side . . .
In helicopters over the past few years I've had a couple of close calls, even being extra careful and thinking eveything twice, there are just some things that are out of your control.
One thing I will never forget is an accident few years back where a Bell 412 was brought down by fireworks from a fair that was below, 8 people died and the pilot was as carefull as there are, I have more examples but what's the use, you know already.
Anybody who's flown helicopters for a while is missing a friend or two today, this gets me thinking sometimes, after all I've never met an airline pilot or corporate pilot who feels this way.
Please share your thoughts/experiences/opinions.
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Part of the problem is the job you do with helicopters - how many King Airs do you find in clearings landing on slippery logs 
I go by two things - my own sense of what is right and wrong (and I'm not afraid to tell any employer to shove it), and the maintenance. After that, I reckon if God wants me back I don't have much say in the matter!
phil
I go by two things - my own sense of what is right and wrong (and I'm not afraid to tell any employer to shove it), and the maintenance. After that, I reckon if God wants me back I don't have much say in the matter!
phil
Paco is right....when you are called....you are going...kicking and screaming but going none the less! I wish to die in my sleep like my Grandpa....not screaming like his passengers!
Sometimes the admin that comes with my job gets me down. It's the flying that rejuvenates me. Last week I was told by another pilot who has just done some research on the salary market, that :
Articulated lorry drivers get a basic of Ł30,000 plus expenses.
Tanker drivers (BP Conoco Shell etc) get Ł40,000 basic.
Channel tunnel train drivers get Ł45,000 plus overtime!
(some of them gross Ł55,000).
When you compare some heli flying with these jobs you wonder why people struggle to fly-and for peanuts. I would argue that only a very few heli jobs offer exciting stimulating flying....thankfully I'm one of the lucky ones.
Many are either dangerous, dull or monotonous.
Dreams know no boundaries..................
Articulated lorry drivers get a basic of Ł30,000 plus expenses.
Tanker drivers (BP Conoco Shell etc) get Ł40,000 basic.
Channel tunnel train drivers get Ł45,000 plus overtime!
(some of them gross Ł55,000).
When you compare some heli flying with these jobs you wonder why people struggle to fly-and for peanuts. I would argue that only a very few heli jobs offer exciting stimulating flying....thankfully I'm one of the lucky ones.
Many are either dangerous, dull or monotonous.
Dreams know no boundaries..................
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Blenderpilot in answer to your question, I'd have to say a resounding no. 
I love flying helo's!
Do I think of the dangers? Yes.
Do they bother me? No.
Anything mechanical can break.....(Trust me I know!)
I often feel for 'plank' pilots. I see their life as dull & uneventful. I also admire them....throwing however many tonnes of aircraft at the earth to land is a scarey business!
Like Thomas Coupling I'm blessed to be in a job that is rewarding, exhilarating &, yes on occasions, dangerous. But the sense of acheivement & the enjoyment I derive from my flying far outweighs the negatives!
No matter how dangerous, saving a life is worth every moment!
Although his comments on salaries don't half make ya wonder! Why are helo pilots paid so badly???
Give it up......never!
I love flying helo's!
Do I think of the dangers? Yes.
Do they bother me? No.
Anything mechanical can break.....(Trust me I know!)
I often feel for 'plank' pilots. I see their life as dull & uneventful. I also admire them....throwing however many tonnes of aircraft at the earth to land is a scarey business!
Like Thomas Coupling I'm blessed to be in a job that is rewarding, exhilarating &, yes on occasions, dangerous. But the sense of acheivement & the enjoyment I derive from my flying far outweighs the negatives!
No matter how dangerous, saving a life is worth every moment!
Although his comments on salaries don't half make ya wonder! Why are helo pilots paid so badly???
Give it up......never!
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BP,
I know what you are saying, however I tend to look at any act of defying gravity as a risky endeavour
I have had thoughts of "Why?" on occasion, it's natural, to me if one didn't question risks taken, then I worry about that pilot, for that's what aviation is all about, risk management.
But I take that and channel it into effective planning, to make the operation as safe as possible. (This goes for anyone making any flight really).
I know what you are saying, however I tend to look at any act of defying gravity as a risky endeavour
I have had thoughts of "Why?" on occasion, it's natural, to me if one didn't question risks taken, then I worry about that pilot, for that's what aviation is all about, risk management.
But I take that and channel it into effective planning, to make the operation as safe as possible. (This goes for anyone making any flight really).
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Nope.
For thirty years I've complained about the money, the maintenance, the benefits (or the lack thereof), the hours, the Feds, the boss(es)..., you name it. For thirty years I've threatened to walk away from it for the same reasons. The reason I haven't is simple; I really enjoy the hell out of what I do (OK, if a person can "love" what they do, yeah, I "love" flying helicopters). The one thing that I haven't ever been is worried or scared.
My niche is external load. I think it's what I do the best and, certainly, it's what I enjoy the most. Do I look at the "higher danger" of the job? No. Not that I think I'm bullet-proof or "I'm too good", I just don't look at it like that - I never have.
Like some of the others, I believe that I've been blessed with a full, rich life, and, sure, there are still a lot of things I'd like to do yet before I cross that final fence. I have a beautiful, intelligent daughter that I'd like to watch graduate and go to on to college. I hope to someday walk her down the aisle (just as long as she doen't marry a helicopter pilot). I just met a gal I'd like to date - who knows, maybe I'm getting a second chance at that kind of love too? I guess what I'm trying to say here is; I don't feel that flying helicopters will, in any way, increase the chances that I won't get to do these things.
You want to talk "dangerous", how about working as a convenience store clerk in Houston, Texas?!?
For thirty years I've complained about the money, the maintenance, the benefits (or the lack thereof), the hours, the Feds, the boss(es)..., you name it. For thirty years I've threatened to walk away from it for the same reasons. The reason I haven't is simple; I really enjoy the hell out of what I do (OK, if a person can "love" what they do, yeah, I "love" flying helicopters). The one thing that I haven't ever been is worried or scared.
My niche is external load. I think it's what I do the best and, certainly, it's what I enjoy the most. Do I look at the "higher danger" of the job? No. Not that I think I'm bullet-proof or "I'm too good", I just don't look at it like that - I never have.
Like some of the others, I believe that I've been blessed with a full, rich life, and, sure, there are still a lot of things I'd like to do yet before I cross that final fence. I have a beautiful, intelligent daughter that I'd like to watch graduate and go to on to college. I hope to someday walk her down the aisle (just as long as she doen't marry a helicopter pilot). I just met a gal I'd like to date - who knows, maybe I'm getting a second chance at that kind of love too? I guess what I'm trying to say here is; I don't feel that flying helicopters will, in any way, increase the chances that I won't get to do these things.
You want to talk "dangerous", how about working as a convenience store clerk in Houston, Texas?!?
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Mmmmh, interesting indeed . . . . . I thank you all for sharing your thoughts, to be honest this "thinking about the danger involved" has come during the past 8 months, I will be a father in about 30 days and I am now strangely doing the best preflights I have everdone, I no longer like and feel proud of "miracle takeoffs", I am starting to feel uncomfortable about hovering in "shaded area of the H/V diagram" for no apparent reason, and I would now NEVER set the autopilot of the Bell 230, and then jump to the rear to take a picture of an empty cockpit in flight!
thanks again!
thanks again!
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Blenderpilot
Please don't take this as patronizing as it sounds but it sounds like you have become a "mature pilot" on behalf of all who fly with you
Congratulations
"Live long and prosper"
Please don't take this as patronizing as it sounds but it sounds like you have become a "mature pilot" on behalf of all who fly with you
Congratulations
"Live long and prosper"
Iconoclast
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Pilots aren't the only ones concerned about safety.
I would assume that most pilots are concerned about safety both from a design and maintenance point of view. And, that many figure if the helicopter is certified then it is safe. However, prior to its’ certification people like me pick the design apart analyzing it from the standpoint of reliability, maintainability and safety (RMS). If the pilots could take part in these design reviews and listen to the lame excuses offered by the designers for not modifying the design to improve RMS many of them would give up flying or, they would increase their levels of life insurance.
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Lu,
Not too long ago a Bell Factory Instructror pilot came to give us training in the 230, I asked him why the 230 checklist had absolutely no sequence to it, you have to look up, down, sideways, everywhere, with every item, I always felt like I was in a submarine!
It just didn't make sense. He told me he agreed and that the only reason that they didn't change it, was because that's the way it was since the beginning and that changing it would be expensive primarily due to the cost of printing new sections of the manual! There are only 36 or so 230's flying.
Not too long ago a Bell Factory Instructror pilot came to give us training in the 230, I asked him why the 230 checklist had absolutely no sequence to it, you have to look up, down, sideways, everywhere, with every item, I always felt like I was in a submarine!
It just didn't make sense. He told me he agreed and that the only reason that they didn't change it, was because that's the way it was since the beginning and that changing it would be expensive primarily due to the cost of printing new sections of the manual! There are only 36 or so 230's flying.
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Hiya Bp........sorry to get away from helis and your poll but sounds to me like you got Daddyitis.
As soon as you mentioned that you are gonna be a daddy in 30 days, it reminded me of myself 10 years ago.
I used to do a lot of rock climbing and although I was extremely safe, as soon as I found out that I was gonna be a dad, well, that was it. Harnesses where treble checked, safety ropes where in abundance, more protection was put up than normal.......anyway, I think you get the picture.
Congratulations to you and your partner when the big day comes along.........the scary thoughts do wear off in time.......
Good luck, (pampers disposables are the best)
As soon as you mentioned that you are gonna be a daddy in 30 days, it reminded me of myself 10 years ago.
I used to do a lot of rock climbing and although I was extremely safe, as soon as I found out that I was gonna be a dad, well, that was it. Harnesses where treble checked, safety ropes where in abundance, more protection was put up than normal.......anyway, I think you get the picture.
Congratulations to you and your partner when the big day comes along.........the scary thoughts do wear off in time.......
Good luck, (pampers disposables are the best)
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Bell (Not invented here syndrome)
To: BlenderPilot
Bell is notorious for not following the suggestions of pilots and operators. In Iran I identified a chronic problem on the AH1-J instrument lighting system and suggested to Bell Helicopter how to fix the problem as it had to do with the design of the power supply that allowed it to be crushed during installation. That was in 1976 and the problem still exists. Another problem identified to Bell was the fact that the main rotor of the 214 was not bonded to the structure allowing the mast to become severely magnetized causing problems with the stand by compasses and the VOR. Bell never addressed the fix to this problem. There were many more similar design problems that were not addressed but if I went into detail I might be accused by the moderator of being biased.
Bell is notorious for not following the suggestions of pilots and operators. In Iran I identified a chronic problem on the AH1-J instrument lighting system and suggested to Bell Helicopter how to fix the problem as it had to do with the design of the power supply that allowed it to be crushed during installation. That was in 1976 and the problem still exists. Another problem identified to Bell was the fact that the main rotor of the 214 was not bonded to the structure allowing the mast to become severely magnetized causing problems with the stand by compasses and the VOR. Bell never addressed the fix to this problem. There were many more similar design problems that were not addressed but if I went into detail I might be accused by the moderator of being biased.
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Lu
I am a little concerned about the tone of your post, but have decided to leave it for the moment.
'Bias' is not the problem - for the reasons Hoverman identified.
However, PPRuNe has to be careful about allowing the forums to be used for making allegations / settling old scores.
Your views on Bell are more than balanced by the overwhelming number of complimentary comments made about Bell helicopters on this forum, and I suspect any Bell personnel who follow discussions on Rotorheads will immediately recognise your name and realise your comments don't do any harm them to their reputation.
I am a little concerned about the tone of your post, but have decided to leave it for the moment.
'Bias' is not the problem - for the reasons Hoverman identified.
However, PPRuNe has to be careful about allowing the forums to be used for making allegations / settling old scores.
Your views on Bell are more than balanced by the overwhelming number of complimentary comments made about Bell helicopters on this forum, and I suspect any Bell personnel who follow discussions on Rotorheads will immediately recognise your name and realise your comments don't do any harm them to their reputation.
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Checklist order
Blenderpilot,
Maybe you could change the order of items on the checklist (sensibly, of course) to create a more natural "flow" and get this approved by your aviation authority (DGAC?). An operation I worked at did this for the B206 and got it approved by the FAA. The pre-start cockpit check became a very logical "flow sequence" that was easy, quick, complete and consistent. I believe it was definitely safer than the checklist order Bell prescribed.
If you foresee years of red tape and bureaucratic hassle it may not be worth it though...
Maybe you could change the order of items on the checklist (sensibly, of course) to create a more natural "flow" and get this approved by your aviation authority (DGAC?). An operation I worked at did this for the B206 and got it approved by the FAA. The pre-start cockpit check became a very logical "flow sequence" that was easy, quick, complete and consistent. I believe it was definitely safer than the checklist order Bell prescribed.
If you foresee years of red tape and bureaucratic hassle it may not be worth it though...
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It depends what you do...
I've just spent the last 7 years flying Astars on the coast of BC Canada and the Yukon Territory. Comming from New Zealand, it was heli-pilots dream... I never thought I would complain about "too much flying", I guess thats a good problem.
Anyway, I gotta say that during the 7 years/4000 hrs I started to get a bit gun shy when it came to flying in the mountains in 40KT+ winds. Sometimes I would imagine the consequences of a fatal accident before I departed, the family and friends etc... Sounds odd but if anything it made my flying even safer. I didn't do this intentionally, it just keeped looming in the back of my mind.
I lost a very good mate 4 years ago, he was a long time friend that was killed in a Black Hawk doing a training mission at night in Australia. The accident involved 2 Black Hawks colliding. He wasn't even a pilot, he was an SAS Soldier. Anyway, his death seemed to have an effect on me as far as these odd thoughts going through my head everytime I had to go out on a wild mission.
Whoever said "we have all lost a mate or two" is so right. I've been flying helicopters for 13 years and I have lost a few mates. The thing that really gets to me, is the guys that die from either somebody elses mistakes or mechanical failure. In other words, they had no control over what took place, ending in their death. I find that disturbing for the simple fact that, I know that if I am incredibly carefull, I can still be killed at the drop of a hat. For the money we make, it really doesn't seem worth it, but helicopter flying is way too much fun and who the heck could go do a regular job after having that kind of lifestyle, I couldn't - no way !
I'm back in NZ and I'm a city pilot now, I get to do some good flying, lifting onto hi-rises in downtown Auckland etc in an Astar and have to say that, on a daily basis, I'm way more relaxed at the controls than in the mountains of Canada in a snow storm blowing 44 KTS approaching dark. My point is, it depends what you do !
Anyway, I gotta say that during the 7 years/4000 hrs I started to get a bit gun shy when it came to flying in the mountains in 40KT+ winds. Sometimes I would imagine the consequences of a fatal accident before I departed, the family and friends etc... Sounds odd but if anything it made my flying even safer. I didn't do this intentionally, it just keeped looming in the back of my mind.
I lost a very good mate 4 years ago, he was a long time friend that was killed in a Black Hawk doing a training mission at night in Australia. The accident involved 2 Black Hawks colliding. He wasn't even a pilot, he was an SAS Soldier. Anyway, his death seemed to have an effect on me as far as these odd thoughts going through my head everytime I had to go out on a wild mission.
Whoever said "we have all lost a mate or two" is so right. I've been flying helicopters for 13 years and I have lost a few mates. The thing that really gets to me, is the guys that die from either somebody elses mistakes or mechanical failure. In other words, they had no control over what took place, ending in their death. I find that disturbing for the simple fact that, I know that if I am incredibly carefull, I can still be killed at the drop of a hat. For the money we make, it really doesn't seem worth it, but helicopter flying is way too much fun and who the heck could go do a regular job after having that kind of lifestyle, I couldn't - no way !
I'm back in NZ and I'm a city pilot now, I get to do some good flying, lifting onto hi-rises in downtown Auckland etc in an Astar and have to say that, on a daily basis, I'm way more relaxed at the controls than in the mountains of Canada in a snow storm blowing 44 KTS approaching dark. My point is, it depends what you do !
Last edited by brigzy; 26th Jun 2002 at 10:23.
Iconoclast
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I call em like I see em.
To: Heliport
“I am a little concerned about the tone of your post.”
There was no tone to my post. I was replying to BlenderPilots’ statement about why the checklist could not be changed because that’s the way it was originally constructed. My comments about the intransigence of Bell to make changes to specific problems is based on three years as Manager of Technical Assistance for Bell Helicopter International. I made the final comment about the possibility of being chastised by one of the moderators as a joke.
Lu
By 'tone' I meant there is a risk Bell, just like any other reputable person or corporation, may not be too pleased to have allegations made against them on a public forum. I am concerned to avoid PPRuNe becoming involved in a dispute as a result of your comments.
I decided not to remove or edit your earlier post because I'm cautiously optimistic that Bell won't be too troubled when they see the name of Lu Zuckerman because you have a reputation for criticising all manufacturers who decline to accept your ideas. Sikorsky and Robinson come to mind immediately.
I appreciate you've worked for Bell; that is why I refered to PPRuNe having to be careful about people using the forums to make allegations / settle old scores.
I've deleted a sentence from your latest post. I'm confident you will understand the reason.
I asumed your final comment was meant as a joke, and took it in the spirit in which it was meant. My comments are serious.
Heliport
“I am a little concerned about the tone of your post.”
There was no tone to my post. I was replying to BlenderPilots’ statement about why the checklist could not be changed because that’s the way it was originally constructed. My comments about the intransigence of Bell to make changes to specific problems is based on three years as Manager of Technical Assistance for Bell Helicopter International. I made the final comment about the possibility of being chastised by one of the moderators as a joke.
Lu
By 'tone' I meant there is a risk Bell, just like any other reputable person or corporation, may not be too pleased to have allegations made against them on a public forum. I am concerned to avoid PPRuNe becoming involved in a dispute as a result of your comments.
I decided not to remove or edit your earlier post because I'm cautiously optimistic that Bell won't be too troubled when they see the name of Lu Zuckerman because you have a reputation for criticising all manufacturers who decline to accept your ideas. Sikorsky and Robinson come to mind immediately.
I appreciate you've worked for Bell; that is why I refered to PPRuNe having to be careful about people using the forums to make allegations / settle old scores.
I've deleted a sentence from your latest post. I'm confident you will understand the reason.
I asumed your final comment was meant as a joke, and took it in the spirit in which it was meant. My comments are serious.
Heliport
Last edited by Heliport; 26th Jun 2002 at 15:04.
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aultguish,
I'm afraid your affirmation maybe right, as for the diaper advice thanks I hadn't thought about that.
Buitenzorg,
I don't know about officially changing a checklist, but trust me its been a long time since I haven't done it the "red book way" I will never forget the nice easy way the 212/412 checklists are set up.
Lu,
Designers do weird stuff! Up till now every helicopter I have flown has the switches setup as for the ON position to be when they are forward.
When I went to fly the Beechjet, every switch is set up as to OFF when forward, during one of my first flights, during the ascent checklist I thought I had forgotten to retract the landing lights and since there was a 150 KTS limitation I instictively put the switch back and this actuallly extended the LL, at 380 KTS, needless to say the lights and their covers were pretty messed up and wouldn't retract properly after that, I know it was dumb of me to just flip the switches without looking for a second but it was instinctive.
Isn't there something like an international designer standard that dictates the way this things should be?
I'm afraid your affirmation maybe right, as for the diaper advice thanks I hadn't thought about that.
Buitenzorg,
I don't know about officially changing a checklist, but trust me its been a long time since I haven't done it the "red book way" I will never forget the nice easy way the 212/412 checklists are set up.
Lu,
Designers do weird stuff! Up till now every helicopter I have flown has the switches setup as for the ON position to be when they are forward.
When I went to fly the Beechjet, every switch is set up as to OFF when forward, during one of my first flights, during the ascent checklist I thought I had forgotten to retract the landing lights and since there was a 150 KTS limitation I instictively put the switch back and this actuallly extended the LL, at 380 KTS, needless to say the lights and their covers were pretty messed up and wouldn't retract properly after that, I know it was dumb of me to just flip the switches without looking for a second but it was instinctive.
Isn't there something like an international designer standard that dictates the way this things should be?