Fire warnings - an intellectual debate on this contentious subject
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Imagine two AW139's flying around IMC over the mountains.....Both pilots take turns to loosen their harness and open their doors to peer outside
That is a bad move in practice. You won't get a 139 pilot door closed again at or above instrument Vmin (many pilots have tried this after having a cockpit door CAS warning). It's not like a cabin door that is designed to be opened in flight. The distortion on the airframe and the door coupled with the venturi effect pulling the door away from the airframe mean that you will take one pilot out of service while they hold on to that door until you can achieve a landing or a hover to close it properly. If in VMC, you can make a steep turn through 90 degrees and look to the side for a smoke trail as confirmation of fire.
Remembering that those engine bays are required to be able to contain a fire for a period of time to meet certification standards.)
You really willing to hang your Hat and Ass on the Authority and Manufacturer to grant you a fixed amount of time to fly around with a Fire blazing away?
If you do....I have a Real Estate deal on some beautiful Lots in South Florida that you just should not pass up!
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Coyote
That's all agreed but the factory school has a special status as all it's customers will point the finger and say 'you taught us to do it this way'.
You may not like the presence of the lawyer sitting on our shoulders but he is there nonetheless and I am duty bound to do what he says or go and find another job.
We are not hindered by the wording of the checklist but we are stuck with the current interpretation of those words. We could be more enlightened in that respect but those that decide policy need to be persuaded of that.
G.
You may not like the presence of the lawyer sitting on our shoulders but he is there nonetheless and I am duty bound to do what he says or go and find another job.
We are not hindered by the wording of the checklist but we are stuck with the current interpretation of those words. We could be more enlightened in that respect but those that decide policy need to be persuaded of that.
G.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
EC 135 P2+ FLM page 61/155
The problem with someone saying 'you taught us to do it this way', is that when it comes to it there probably isn't anything to back those words up.
3.1.1 Basic rules
These procedures deal with common emergencies. However, they do not prevent the pilot from taking additional action necessary to recover the emergency situation.
Although the procedures contained in this Section are considered the best available, the pilot’s sound judgement is of paramount importance when confronted with an emergency.
To assist the pilot during an inflight emergency, three basic rules have been established:
1. Maintain aircraft control
2. Analyse the situation
3. Take proper action
NOTE It is impossible to establish a predetermined set of instructions which would provide a ready-made decision applicable to all situations.
These procedures deal with common emergencies. However, they do not prevent the pilot from taking additional action necessary to recover the emergency situation.
Although the procedures contained in this Section are considered the best available, the pilot’s sound judgement is of paramount importance when confronted with an emergency.
To assist the pilot during an inflight emergency, three basic rules have been established:
1. Maintain aircraft control
2. Analyse the situation
3. Take proper action
NOTE It is impossible to establish a predetermined set of instructions which would provide a ready-made decision applicable to all situations.
So, presuming you have followed the checklist correctly, you will have isolated the fuel to the engine from outside the firewall, shutdown the engine mecanically and electrically and punched one or two loads of extinguishant into the engine compartment - what inside that firewall is actually going to keep on burning?
In Theory....nothing.
Has the fire gotten outside of the Containment area or not?
How do you know?
Has the fire gotten outside of the Containment area or not?
How do you know?
You don't but your fire sensors are inside the containment area anyway (other than baggage compartment).
If you deal with the initial fire warning promptly then nothing should be able to escape the containment area - save an explosive failure of the engine in which case all bets are off.
If you deal with the initial fire warning promptly then nothing should be able to escape the containment area - save an explosive failure of the engine in which case all bets are off.
S61, vicinity Bournemouth UK, 2002 (AW FIRE) - SKYbrary Aviation Safety
82 Seconds from the Starting Bell to the Landing!
82 Seconds from the Starting Bell to the Landing!
"The No 2 engine had suffered rapid deterioration of the No 5 (location) bearing of the free turbine, causing failure of the adjacent carbon oil seal and mechanical interference between the Main Drive Shaft Thomas coupling and the Engine Mounting Rear Support Assembly tube, which completely severed the support tube.
A severe fire, outside of the engine fire zone, was caused because the released engine oil was ignited either by this mechanical interference, or by contact with the hot engine exhaust duct.
A severe fire, outside of the engine fire zone, was caused because the released engine oil was ignited either by this mechanical interference, or by contact with the hot engine exhaust duct.
I thought UK 332's had mirrors fitted to give the crews a visual of the engine bay and transmission areas. Wouldn't be difficult to fix on a 139.
I believe this image shows them fitted at the top of the doors?
https://www.google.com/search?q=supe...wPXX_awVbDM%3A
I believe this image shows them fitted at the top of the doors?
https://www.google.com/search?q=supe...wPXX_awVbDM%3A
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False fires lights
After 18K hours on R/W and 4.5K hours on F/W I have had many fire lights.
UH1, BH04/05/212/214ST, SK55/55T/58/58T/61/76, King Air,etc.
Not ONE was a real fire.
I had a chance to run that Poole incident in the Bournemouth 61 sim. They also experienced loss of hydraulics indications but I cannot recall the exact sequence. In any event, due to fire damage up top all hydraulics were lost just at touchdown.
It was an especially fun exercise for those who are sim instructors. One would never be so cruel as to give some poor sap multiple, supposedly unrelated, failures
UH1, BH04/05/212/214ST, SK55/55T/58/58T/61/76, King Air,etc.
Not ONE was a real fire.
I had a chance to run that Poole incident in the Bournemouth 61 sim. They also experienced loss of hydraulics indications but I cannot recall the exact sequence. In any event, due to fire damage up top all hydraulics were lost just at touchdown.
It was an especially fun exercise for those who are sim instructors. One would never be so cruel as to give some poor sap multiple, supposedly unrelated, failures
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Specifically for the AW139, the RFM contains this disclaimer:
EMERGENCY LANDING GUIDANCE
Throughout this Section, three terms are used to indicate the degree of urgency with which a landing must be effected. In cases where extremely hazardous landing conditions exist such as dense bush, heavy seas or mountainous terrain, the final decision as to the urgency of landing must be made by the pilot.
As to the "confirm fire" part of the procedure, I always ask "What's burning?". Logically, there are three options: Fuel, Oil, or Electrical. Any of those three should provide supporting information such as fluctuating fuel press or engine oil press. An electrical (generator) fire would also have accompanying problem indications on the electrical panel and/or CAS.
It's also helpful to remember that titanium is used in and around the engine bays and that the material is required to withstand/contain the fire for 15 minutes in a transport category helicopter. Hopefully, it can be extinguished long before that or a landing can be affected if it does not.
EMERGENCY LANDING GUIDANCE
Throughout this Section, three terms are used to indicate the degree of urgency with which a landing must be effected. In cases where extremely hazardous landing conditions exist such as dense bush, heavy seas or mountainous terrain, the final decision as to the urgency of landing must be made by the pilot.
As to the "confirm fire" part of the procedure, I always ask "What's burning?". Logically, there are three options: Fuel, Oil, or Electrical. Any of those three should provide supporting information such as fluctuating fuel press or engine oil press. An electrical (generator) fire would also have accompanying problem indications on the electrical panel and/or CAS.
It's also helpful to remember that titanium is used in and around the engine bays and that the material is required to withstand/contain the fire for 15 minutes in a transport category helicopter. Hopefully, it can be extinguished long before that or a landing can be affected if it does not.
Last edited by HLCPTR; 4th Jan 2016 at 18:24. Reason: Typo
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A certain OC at 660 Sqn was discussing this subject with us studes at the time of his upgraders, he pointed at one of my commissioned cohort...."you, give me a positive sign of fire!"
"Blistering and redness on the back of my neck sir!"
To be fair he accepted and moved to the next victim, I mean student....
"Blistering and redness on the back of my neck sir!"
To be fair he accepted and moved to the next victim, I mean student....
I had a Fire caption during a start on a Lynx. After informing the twr, I started to exit the aircraft to "check for positive signs of fire", telling my student to shut down but do NOT set off the extinguisher. There was no fire but he set of the extinguisher anyway. 
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May Dad tells the story of a fire warning light he had in a Meteor jet in the 50s. The FRCs said something along the lines of "Point the aircraft out to sea and eject". That was a scarier proposition than staying in the aircraft which seemed to be flying OK. After landing, the techs told him not to worry... Meteors did that all the time!!!
The decision as to whether to treat the fire as real our not could be coloured by how scary the alternatives are.
In a LPC recently, I saw a candidate decide that an engine fire indication was not real simply because the engine oil temp remained OK!!!!! Continued as if nothing had happened, no TEM at all!
The decision as to whether to treat the fire as real our not could be coloured by how scary the alternatives are.
In a LPC recently, I saw a candidate decide that an engine fire indication was not real simply because the engine oil temp remained OK!!!!! Continued as if nothing had happened, no TEM at all!
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The old BO also used to give you a Fire Warning when hovering about with a tailwind on a hot day.
Then there's the models with "flame flicker" detectors which just loved to go off due to rotor blade flicker in the sun.
Not to forget a particular model which reacted poorly to a cell phone near the baggage detector.
Then there's the models with "flame flicker" detectors which just loved to go off due to rotor blade flicker in the sun.
Not to forget a particular model which reacted poorly to a cell phone near the baggage detector.