Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Rotorheads
Reload this Page >

Ship to Air refueling

Rotorheads A haven for helicopter professionals to discuss the things that affect them

Ship to Air refueling

Old 5th Jan 2016, 10:20
  #41 (permalink)  
FD2
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Elsewhere
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Crab:

Are you quite sure you're not making this stuff up as you go along?

I'm sure some dates and other evidence to support at least some of your claims would be welcomed by your fans.

Try to remember to write it all down for us nice and clearly, as you were taught to do on the Staff Course.
FD2 is offline  
Old 5th Jan 2016, 11:22
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 9,662
Received 108 Likes on 51 Posts
•NVG first used in the Falklands by the RN in 1982.
•Double strop lifts around since I was training, 1969, and certainly raised at INTSAR in 1972 when I was on the staff for the event. Not by the RAF, I hasten to add, but by the Noggie's who lost a survivor on the winch and another because he was too large to fit any of the standard strops in use back then.
•Can't speak for FLIR, we were battling to get it in VicPol Air Wing in 1982 when the NSCA (Vic) got the first operational civil unit in Australia. What's the RAF/RN history there?
John - NVG not used on RNSAR until mid 2000's - Prestwick instructed in their use by RAFSAR QHI.
Double strop lift - as in taking a casualty out of the water horizontally to avoid loss of hydrostatic squeeze allowing warm blood to drop to legs - some Lyme Bay casualties (kids in canoes) died from shock on the way to hospital some didn't. RN used vertical lift, RAF used horizontal - subsequently accepted as SOP by RNSAR for casualty in the water.
FLIR - introduced mid 2000s by RAF - not sure if RN SAR eventually converted all the aircraft before folding.

We are on the same side but you keep nibbling away at me and the RAF
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 5th Jan 2016, 12:31
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Scotland
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
FLIR introduced 1984 by Bristow.
Gandalf the Viking is offline  
Old 5th Jan 2016, 16:11
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Wales
Posts: 464
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I recall 72 Sqn SHDNI were on PNG in 1976/77, not great and we stopped after a couple of 'incidents'!
Al-bert is offline  
Old 5th Jan 2016, 16:44
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 9,662
Received 108 Likes on 51 Posts
FLIR introduced 1984 by Bristow.
A turret with the ability to detect a head in the water from 400m, an autosearch capability, colour or B&W IR picture and using QWIP technology????? Gosh, they were advanced
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 5th Jan 2016, 17:25
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: In the Haven of Peace
Age: 78
Posts: 600
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
It was more advanced than anything the crabs had at the time and was certified for use for SAR on the Bristow Bell 212s. We had 1 unit based on the Treasure Finder as a declared facility available for use by the Coastguard (though it was paid for by Shell and available primarily for use in the Brent field). Shell, Bristow and Louis Newmark developed a system which at the time was fairly advanced and which later was certified as the LN400 in the SAR S61. Because of the low power margins of the 212 in low winds and a control reversal in pitch at certain low airspeeds it was never certified for auto hover on the 212 and only the yaw channel could be coupled when lined up on final approach.
soggyboxers is offline  
Old 5th Jan 2016, 19:44
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 9,662
Received 108 Likes on 51 Posts
We had 1 unit based on the Treasure Finder as a declared facility available for use by the Coastguard (though it was paid for by Shell and available primarily for use in the Brent field).
so how many were there available for UK-wide SAR? How many rescues was it used on? Our FLIR turret has been used on hundreds if not thousands.

As for LN400 - that was an autopilot and predecessor to the excellent SN500 as used in Mk3A RAF Sea Kings but never taken up by RN
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 5th Jan 2016, 20:49
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: In the Haven of Peace
Age: 78
Posts: 600
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
so how many were there available for UK-wide SAR? How many rescues was it used on? Our FLIR turret has been used on hundreds if not thousands.
As I so clearly stated, it was 1 unit paid for by Shell and primarily for use by Shell. We carried out about 100 rescues a year, almost none for Shell. The LN 450 was actually a predecessor to the excellent LN400, as used by the excellent Bristow SAR units on the S61 and never used by the crabs, with whom I sadly served a 2 year exchange more than 40 years ago. I was actually invited to rejoin the military as a crab flying Chinooks for 7 Squadron, with the promise of a transfer to SAR after one tour, but luckily I decided not to become anally retentive and continued my life as a human being
soggyboxers is offline  
Old 5th Jan 2016, 21:44
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 9,662
Received 108 Likes on 51 Posts
Our loss then
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 6th Jan 2016, 11:50
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Berks
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I seldom bother to respond, but sometimes you have to - the lack of FLIR on RN SAR can be placed firmly at the feet of the Sea King Project Team who provided funding for the Yellow Fleet Aircraft, but would not do so for the Grey Fleet SAR aircraft. Same with NVG at the outset.

The arguments against the RN for enforcing DL currency have nothing to do with SAR Operational flying, but everything to do with routine training. As anyone familiar with the Military Aviation Regulations will remember the aircraft Captain may (as long as he can justify it) deviate from the regulations to save life or complete an operational sortie (SAR being just that). There have been (and I hope will continue to be) many examples of successful deviations.

We shouldn't/don't need to resort to mud slinging between services as in my memory we all got on perfectly well at operator level - it was only those who swallowed the * pills that became tribalist.

And HIFR is not any riskier than a DL if both are conducted properly by competent and current crews.
Splash1983 is offline  
Old 6th Jan 2016, 13:30
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 9,662
Received 108 Likes on 51 Posts
Splash 1983 - it might be more complicated than simply blaming the SKIPT - we got the FLIR on the Mk3A first because it was easier to integrate to the digital screens for the radar.

All the Sea Kings across both fleets should have been to 3A standard in the 1990s (with SN500 and a few other mods) but the RN realised they were getting Merlin and withdrew support for that, preferring to have the money in the new platform.

We only got 6 Mk3As as a result.

The Mk3s eventually got funding for the upgrade to the Dual Monitor system and then the FLIR for the sake of fleet commonality across RAF SAR.

The DL currency issue was driven by the boat drivers to provide assurance to the Captain of the ship that the crews of the helicopters wouldn't bend his boat because they had been properly trained.
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 6th Jan 2016, 14:13
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Berks
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
You've slightly missed the point it wasn't about who did and didn't support each other, but that the 'Purple' organisation made the decision and not he single service.

Also it wasn't the ships drivers who pushed for the currency requirement, but the aviators to ensure there was commonality of the approach across all services and arms to a common standard - unless you were on an operational sortie.
Splash1983 is offline  
Old 6th Jan 2016, 14:40
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 9,662
Received 108 Likes on 51 Posts
I get where you are coming from - the one thing you can say about the Sea King Integrated Project Team is that they weren't integrated in any way shape or form

As for DLs - that is how RN Stds explained it to me - driven by boat drivers but happy to be corrected.
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 6th Jan 2016, 14:45
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Berks
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Ultimately the Captain of the Ship authorises the flight from his ship so is the responsible officer for all flying. Trappers may have voiced that opinion, but I'd rather we aviation experts took the credit!!
Splash1983 is offline  
Old 6th Jan 2016, 15:24
  #55 (permalink)  

Avoid imitations
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,075
Received 56 Likes on 28 Posts
John - NVG not used on RNSAR until mid 2000's - Prestwick instructed in their use by RAFSAR QHI.
But if I'm not mistaken, a certain Lt Andy Jeffrey was awarded an OBE for his part in leading the RN NVG trials/operational flying done during the FI conflict.

Having said that, RAFSH beat them to it by a small margin, but using PNG rather than NVG. And very scary it was, too.
ShyTorque is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.