North Sea strike?
DB - yeah fair enough I can see your posts are heart felt.
I don't have any special insight into CHC other than to know broadly about these things is my job. For the sake of brevity when things go from $10 to 40cents its for a reason and from looking at accounts and the earnings calls they are in a spot.
Of course good luck to our fellow man and I too have been in not too dissimilar positions but I suppose with my business it comes with the territory and you get thick skinned to it ultimately - not that it makes it any easier.
At CHC however it really can't be a surprise - or rather I'd be amazed if it was - although actually I'm surprised there hasn't been serious conversation about some trying to do their own thing, trying to win biz from CHC because from other threads it doesn't seem that big Oil is too tied into any one company or at least not for long periods.
I don't have any special insight into CHC other than to know broadly about these things is my job. For the sake of brevity when things go from $10 to 40cents its for a reason and from looking at accounts and the earnings calls they are in a spot.
Of course good luck to our fellow man and I too have been in not too dissimilar positions but I suppose with my business it comes with the territory and you get thick skinned to it ultimately - not that it makes it any easier.
At CHC however it really can't be a surprise - or rather I'd be amazed if it was - although actually I'm surprised there hasn't been serious conversation about some trying to do their own thing, trying to win biz from CHC because from other threads it doesn't seem that big Oil is too tied into any one company or at least not for long periods.
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The average NS pilot clears between 2.5 and 5.5k per month. Living in Aberdeen a modest 4 bed house mortgage for a person without family money will burn between 1500-2000 per month. By the time all fixed costs are met probably 2.5-3.0 k has already gone
Are you being serious?
CHC
Bristow
My school days are over, but that sums up to much more than your "average"...(and they are not giving the peaks on this website).
Even after tax, you will not get close to that low..
But let me remind you that my colleagues spend 98% of their flight time flying over hostile open water. They cannot pop it in a field when a light comes on. Smoke a tab and wait for the ground crew. They spend most of their flight time knowing that if they cannot stay in the air, survival becomes a serious issue.
So do the pilots flying in Nigeria, in Iraq, in Afghanistan, over populated areas like NY....whatīs the point?
Itīs a fact that Offshore-pilots are the closest to airline pilots; their "work load" is low compared to utility pilots, fire pilots or (Night) MEDEVAC pilots...all they do is following their procedures and being prepared for the (unlikely) event of any issues.
Itīs a job-and i donīt judge head over heels, but i am tired of "that bunch" considering themselves "so special and valuable"-you are drivers, like the rest of us-and replaceable at the blink of an eye.....
The helicopter world has ALWAYS been a tough business, from the day you start (not knowing if its worth selling everything you have and take a loan from the bank you are not sure youīll ever be able to pay it back)...
As others said before:
What do they want to achieve?
All i can see if some people bitching about being laid of...and that happened to thousands of other people as well..
Do we see an uproar from the ground guys that are out of the job?
Do we here them complaining?
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Oil price is down and may not have reached bottom - on many NS fields are
running at a loss in current economic conditions
Choice is to close down or change the economics - the later can be done by changing back to 2 on - 2 off or 3 on 2 off or... (I can remember when it was 4 on 2 off)
That automatically cuts the number of (very expensive) helicopter trips and personnel required
Banging on about "industry agreements" is all well and good but if they close the fields down it will be a permanent loss in many cases and the NS will go the route of the UK coal industry - fewer units carrying increased costs leads to more closures which leads to ......
running at a loss in current economic conditions
Choice is to close down or change the economics - the later can be done by changing back to 2 on - 2 off or 3 on 2 off or... (I can remember when it was 4 on 2 off)
That automatically cuts the number of (very expensive) helicopter trips and personnel required
Banging on about "industry agreements" is all well and good but if they close the fields down it will be a permanent loss in many cases and the NS will go the route of the UK coal industry - fewer units carrying increased costs leads to more closures which leads to ......
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It might be worth restating that there is a significant amount of TAX in the UK, you remember what tax is right? So whilst the headline might look it's worth bitching about ( a lot of bitching) then you might want to just stow your tits a bit. Currently unemployed and on benefits just in case you are wondering. And yes I do have the number for truck master......
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The helicopter budget for most majors is 1-2% of the overall production costs. Without them of course, there is no production. Get it wrong and the costs are a lot more than 1%. We all need to share the pain, in proportion.
Have done utility, under slinging, EMS, SAR. Just remind me how many people you are responsible for? Land with 20 others at night on the bow of a moving FPSO producing hydrocarbons probably deserves a little responsibility pay. Easy job most of the time, get it wrong on the other days and the consequences are dire. This goes on day in, day out 363 days a year carrying thousands of people who have a right to the best of care regardless.
The race to the bottom has begun. It is up to those who are participants whether they want to be at the finish line.
Have done utility, under slinging, EMS, SAR. Just remind me how many people you are responsible for? Land with 20 others at night on the bow of a moving FPSO producing hydrocarbons probably deserves a little responsibility pay. Easy job most of the time, get it wrong on the other days and the consequences are dire. This goes on day in, day out 363 days a year carrying thousands of people who have a right to the best of care regardless.
The race to the bottom has begun. It is up to those who are participants whether they want to be at the finish line.
Question for those that know how the employment laws work in the UK.
If the BALPA decide to get pilots out on strike to support their cause - can the companies just turn around and fire/let go/make redundant those pilots on strike or do you have the right to strike - as just wondering how companies would treat those that are costing them even more money in tough times.
Thanks.
If the BALPA decide to get pilots out on strike to support their cause - can the companies just turn around and fire/let go/make redundant those pilots on strike or do you have the right to strike - as just wondering how companies would treat those that are costing them even more money in tough times.
Thanks.
the salaries posted above are USD/CAD $. CHC Canadian for a level 14 pilot now is approxiamtely 136000/yr. Now, stick that in your exchnage rate calulator and you'll get approx Ģ65k. Oh, now deduct the tax (yes youre now a higher rate tax payer)
The NS salaries are somewhat higher, I know a few guys who earn near and over $100k. We're talking Line Pilots with extra tasks.
Even then he still needs to deduct tax at the higher rate.
The point is, regardless of how much you 'think' the NS guys are earning, the company management just ride roughshod over all agreements. As an ex BALPA rep on the NS I saw it first hand. I had to attend meetings where it was blatantly obvious management didnt give a flying fig about the pilots.
I even saw first hand the failure of different sections of the same company, avoid any solidarity with their workmates in other parts of the UK. The guys in Blackpool were on too good a number and wouldnt join in. The guys at North Denes didnt want to join forces. The guys in ABZ, well they werent interested in the 'mickey mouse' bases down south. This isnt bull****, this is just how it was. Protect your own little empire. Now that the whole NS is in dire straits, things are slightly different. No-one likes to see redundancies anywhere at anytime.
My only hope is that there is an upturn at some point soon, and jobs become available. My personal feeling is that this may not happen on the scale we'd all like to see. I can't see the NS ever being what it once was.
The NS salaries are somewhat higher, I know a few guys who earn near and over $100k. We're talking Line Pilots with extra tasks.
Even then he still needs to deduct tax at the higher rate.
The point is, regardless of how much you 'think' the NS guys are earning, the company management just ride roughshod over all agreements. As an ex BALPA rep on the NS I saw it first hand. I had to attend meetings where it was blatantly obvious management didnt give a flying fig about the pilots.
I even saw first hand the failure of different sections of the same company, avoid any solidarity with their workmates in other parts of the UK. The guys in Blackpool were on too good a number and wouldnt join in. The guys at North Denes didnt want to join forces. The guys in ABZ, well they werent interested in the 'mickey mouse' bases down south. This isnt bull****, this is just how it was. Protect your own little empire. Now that the whole NS is in dire straits, things are slightly different. No-one likes to see redundancies anywhere at anytime.
My only hope is that there is an upturn at some point soon, and jobs become available. My personal feeling is that this may not happen on the scale we'd all like to see. I can't see the NS ever being what it once was.
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According to the UK Tax Office, monthly take home pay on Ģ100,000 per year is Ģ5,443 per month. On Ģ80,000 take home pay would be Ģ4,477 So, if everyone took a small pay cut, one in 5 overall pilot positions could be saved. If North Sea Pilots really care about their co workers, they should ask BALPA to put the idea to the membership as a ballot.
Offshore workers and Oil Company staff have already taken pay cuts, a strike will not have much support from workers in the industry and in the end will achieve nothing.
Offshore workers and Oil Company staff have already taken pay cuts, a strike will not have much support from workers in the industry and in the end will achieve nothing.
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What would we do with the positions saved if there is no flying? They would still be a financial burden to the company, employers NIC, insurance, loss of licence, recurrent training etc. Plus, not all NS pilots are BALPA members and not all companies are BALPA recognised. Not all companies have a grievance or an argument with BALPA if you catch my drift. The argument isn't numbers but the method in deciding how numbers are reduced. Even if this made any form of business sense, how do you apply the reduction? To everyone or only to those earning over a certain figure? When the next round of cuts come do you do the same again until you have a whole company of poorly paid pilots sitting around looking at each other - doesn't make a jot of sense. If there is no job, there is no job. How we have become so rapidly over manned is another story of course when certain employers were still recruiting like no tomorrow even when the price started to tumble.
I know that some majors have made reductions in terms and conditions, removal of lunch allowance, the free fruit removed, coffee quality downgraded. They have also given generous redundancy packages aligned with retraining courses...
You are right that a strike will achieve the square root of cock all.
I know that some majors have made reductions in terms and conditions, removal of lunch allowance, the free fruit removed, coffee quality downgraded. They have also given generous redundancy packages aligned with retraining courses...
You are right that a strike will achieve the square root of cock all.
Around 1980 when the price of oil had collapsed from $30/bbl and everybody was worried about their jobs Alan Bristow stood up at the company Xmas Thrash and declared,
"There will be no redundancies whilst I am chairman of this company."
Three months later it started and a year later even the Old Man himself went.
A few years later Mike Norris addressing the pilots at the Airport Skean Dhu,
"The first priority for this company are the shareholders."
Nothing has changed.
"There will be no redundancies whilst I am chairman of this company."
Three months later it started and a year later even the Old Man himself went.
A few years later Mike Norris addressing the pilots at the Airport Skean Dhu,
"The first priority for this company are the shareholders."
Nothing has changed.
I think there are some very odd comments re pilots and corporate structure.
Of course the board is going to focus on things relevant to them... I.e the owners of the business and for them they care about making money... It can not be news that this is the object of the operation?
I mean pilots can not think flying from A to B is a bloody excercise in their personal development or for a noble cause?!
I guess the company view them as people that have signed a contract to do a job in exchange for money going into a bank account every month?
If there is an issue or something to be done better then there is surely a conversation to be had - however in 4 pages of chit chat not one person has actually said which contracted T&C has had a coach and horse driven through it.
I get the upset at loosing a job but in fairness the market does seem tough and as we have done to death guys like CHC seem genuinely to be hurting. So what should they do exactly?? I'll not hold my breath for a straight answer xxx
Of course the board is going to focus on things relevant to them... I.e the owners of the business and for them they care about making money... It can not be news that this is the object of the operation?
I mean pilots can not think flying from A to B is a bloody excercise in their personal development or for a noble cause?!
I guess the company view them as people that have signed a contract to do a job in exchange for money going into a bank account every month?
If there is an issue or something to be done better then there is surely a conversation to be had - however in 4 pages of chit chat not one person has actually said which contracted T&C has had a coach and horse driven through it.
I get the upset at loosing a job but in fairness the market does seem tough and as we have done to death guys like CHC seem genuinely to be hurting. So what should they do exactly?? I'll not hold my breath for a straight answer xxx
Howcanwebeexpectedtoflylikeeagles
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Any decent redundancy situation should be managed as far as possible to ensure all parties are treated with respect and dignity; those leaving, those left in work and the employing organisation.
A good voluntary redundancy package should ensure this is achieved. If this is done, those leaving will be happy, those left behind won't feel guilty and the employer will have maintained its reputation. A small price to pay.
First and foremost, any existing Collective Labour Agreement should be adhered to. Neither employer nor employee should be allowed to pick and choose which parts of the CLA should be enforced or ignored.
I was lucky in that I spent most of my working life working for a UK O & G helicopter support company which never laid off a pilot in its life. That's not to say we didn't go through hard times. There were at least two significant downturns when our competitors laid off pilots but our managements' view was that downturns create opportunities and it wanted to be in a position to react quickly to the inevitable upturn. On both occasions, this tactic worked. This could only happen however if there was cash in the bank and long term investors who understood this.
History has seen a significant change in company ownership and management. Alan Bristow's falling out with his main shareholder, British & Commonwealth Holdings (or more precisely, Nicholas Cayzer), heralded a period of what I would call the "wilderness years" for BHL when bean counters took control. The take-over of Bond Helicopters parent company (Helicopter Service Group) by CHC would also bring dark clouds to this company. CHC over-extended itself significantly when it raised money to buy HSG. It is still paying a huge price some 15 years later trying to service this debt. While each of CHC's acquired operating companies have made operating profits, these profits have been siphoned off to try and pay off the debt. In my opinion, CHC's subsequent investors have also been less than wise. They have allowed CHC to increase its debt, seemingly without any form of hedging against the inevitable downturn.
This has meant that neither of the two big operators have money in the bank that they are prepared to spend on effectively managing the second most important asset a company has, its employees; the first being its customers.
Having retired earlier this year, I wish all my ex colleagues all the best through these difficult times. I hope it won't be too long before the next upturn. It will come, I know that for sure.
A good voluntary redundancy package should ensure this is achieved. If this is done, those leaving will be happy, those left behind won't feel guilty and the employer will have maintained its reputation. A small price to pay.
First and foremost, any existing Collective Labour Agreement should be adhered to. Neither employer nor employee should be allowed to pick and choose which parts of the CLA should be enforced or ignored.
I was lucky in that I spent most of my working life working for a UK O & G helicopter support company which never laid off a pilot in its life. That's not to say we didn't go through hard times. There were at least two significant downturns when our competitors laid off pilots but our managements' view was that downturns create opportunities and it wanted to be in a position to react quickly to the inevitable upturn. On both occasions, this tactic worked. This could only happen however if there was cash in the bank and long term investors who understood this.
History has seen a significant change in company ownership and management. Alan Bristow's falling out with his main shareholder, British & Commonwealth Holdings (or more precisely, Nicholas Cayzer), heralded a period of what I would call the "wilderness years" for BHL when bean counters took control. The take-over of Bond Helicopters parent company (Helicopter Service Group) by CHC would also bring dark clouds to this company. CHC over-extended itself significantly when it raised money to buy HSG. It is still paying a huge price some 15 years later trying to service this debt. While each of CHC's acquired operating companies have made operating profits, these profits have been siphoned off to try and pay off the debt. In my opinion, CHC's subsequent investors have also been less than wise. They have allowed CHC to increase its debt, seemingly without any form of hedging against the inevitable downturn.
This has meant that neither of the two big operators have money in the bank that they are prepared to spend on effectively managing the second most important asset a company has, its employees; the first being its customers.
Having retired earlier this year, I wish all my ex colleagues all the best through these difficult times. I hope it won't be too long before the next upturn. It will come, I know that for sure.
Howcanwebeexpectedtoflylikeeagles
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Retirement is great DB. Have never been so busy in my life.
I did pop in to see you not long after I went timex to thank you again for that lovely bottle of malt but you were in China.
Hope all is well with you and yours
Cheers
Hugh.
I did pop in to see you not long after I went timex to thank you again for that lovely bottle of malt but you were in China.
Hope all is well with you and yours
Cheers
Hugh.
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'twas my pleasure and sorry I was on walkabout.
If ever you feel the need to pull collective give me a shout. It's not real of course but the next best thing!
DB
If ever you feel the need to pull collective give me a shout. It's not real of course but the next best thing!
DB
Howcanwebeexpectedtoflylikeeagles
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Sorry for thread creep folks but to answer DB, the difference between simulators and real flying is like the difference between masturbation and real sex - as far as I can remember. 
TS - there are a million and one things to do in a big organisation. In CHC no doubt beyond the pilots there are jobs directly involved in helicopter operations but then there is probably someone who works in a post room, sending letters and opening post. Some people answering the phone(s). People to ensure bills and salaries get paid, some people to order office ****e, some to hire and fire, some look after IT, etc etc etc etc.. It will be the same type of anonymous jobs that fill most big companies payroll.
Maybe they are cutting head count pilot wise because they haven't won a contract? Maybe because the ones they did win aren't profitable? Maybe they look at the outlook and don't think it is a quick turn around?? I don't know. But what you can say with certainty is that CHC are not in a happy place, the general environment isn't great and that has been at least obvious from the very publicised price of crude oil and CHC's own stock price for many many months.
So perhaps if you worked there and had other options you could have taken them before now? Maybe you could have asked questions internally before now?
I'm sure CHC issues may not be the pilots fault, but neither will they be the fault of the post room, the receptionist, the tea boy, the fitters, the IT department. And if you blame the executive then OK blame them, BUT if it was ever thus what and why do people work there?? Beyond which if all the genius resides with people and those who can fly then now is the chance to do their own thing!
For some to get stuck on a point of an historic agreement, without which the whole shooting match would have gone to **** years ago at this point is I'll timed and pointless.
I would agree that there is a base cost to these operations that is necessary to make them effective, safe and to ensure professionalism but as someone already said there is in life this race to the bottom. The focus is always on cost and just like the now dead peer who staffed his own personal transport with lesser experienced and no doubt cheap crew it seems that pilots are poor at convincing bill payers they should pay them more.
Maybe they are cutting head count pilot wise because they haven't won a contract? Maybe because the ones they did win aren't profitable? Maybe they look at the outlook and don't think it is a quick turn around?? I don't know. But what you can say with certainty is that CHC are not in a happy place, the general environment isn't great and that has been at least obvious from the very publicised price of crude oil and CHC's own stock price for many many months.
So perhaps if you worked there and had other options you could have taken them before now? Maybe you could have asked questions internally before now?
I'm sure CHC issues may not be the pilots fault, but neither will they be the fault of the post room, the receptionist, the tea boy, the fitters, the IT department. And if you blame the executive then OK blame them, BUT if it was ever thus what and why do people work there?? Beyond which if all the genius resides with people and those who can fly then now is the chance to do their own thing!
For some to get stuck on a point of an historic agreement, without which the whole shooting match would have gone to **** years ago at this point is I'll timed and pointless.
I would agree that there is a base cost to these operations that is necessary to make them effective, safe and to ensure professionalism but as someone already said there is in life this race to the bottom. The focus is always on cost and just like the now dead peer who staffed his own personal transport with lesser experienced and no doubt cheap crew it seems that pilots are poor at convincing bill payers they should pay them more.
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Pitts, yet again a dialogue of sanctimonious claptrap. I think I have finally figured who you are........a Senior Manager! Definitely not a true Rotorhead.