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UK NPAS discussion thread: Mk 5

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UK NPAS discussion thread: Mk 5

Old 20th Feb 2015, 17:24
  #41 (permalink)  
yme
 
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Backtothebeat
I agree with every thing you say.
My rant was not at the professional crews manning or managing the bases.
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Old 20th Feb 2015, 17:45
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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I served for over 7 years on police air support prior to my retirement. I was incredibly proud of my unit and all that worked on it. I don't know whether I feel sadness or shame for the slaughter of what we all knew as an effective method of police support. Whoever has made the decision over these base closures has missed the point. Great if you live near London but a bugger for the rest of the east. My thoughts are with all those effected by this madness, good luck chaps
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Old 20th Feb 2015, 17:45
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Bttb - I can find some C words that fit but that wasn't what you meant, was it?
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Old 20th Feb 2015, 18:35
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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No sure where that map with the latest crayon circles originated,
but it seems to show a new base at East Midlands airport ?

Nail
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Old 20th Feb 2015, 18:45
  #45 (permalink)  

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No sure where that map with the latest crayon circles originated,
but it seems to show a new base at East Midlands airport ?

Nail
Sorry Nail, I made the picture using a well known piece of software. The East Midlands Airport information, apart from there being a link to the NPAS webpage on post 29 of this thread, can also be read here.

"East Midlands Airport to become hub for police planes and helicopter"
East Midlands Airport to become hub for police planes and helicopter | Nottingham Post


In future, I'll wait for your all knowing 'behind the drag curve' input before posting.
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Old 20th Feb 2015, 21:43
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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A lot of new names on here all of a sudden. Welcome.

How much have they just spent refurbishing Wattisham?
That used to be pretty much the same in the Military: spend millions on a base and then close it within months.

all for a 14% saving......will these costs now be passed on to the Forces, so that they DO end up paying less for Air Support
Lets wait and see how much the individual Forces pay for the next Financial Year shall we.

NPAS have already achieved overall savings of 23 per cent, amounting to £11 million
Oh really, when all the Forces paid only £3.7M less for 2013/14 than they paid prior to joining NPAS.

Cameras in cabs : For what purpose
So that they might have some idea what was going on in the event of another Glasgow type accident?

The Henlow gap
What? With all those aircraft down there. Check out the North. You've got 2 Bases to the west of the Pennines(rather close together), Barton and Hawarden, to cover from the Scottish border down to Stafford Stoke area, and two on the East side to cover the same sort of area on their side.

Merseyside's PCC said recently that, " I can confirm that the force is satisfied with the availability, response times, quality of service and value for money, provided by NPAS."

She obviously has the view of the bobbies out on the streets then.
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Old 20th Feb 2015, 21:59
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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I also hear that they are doing away with Base Senior Pilots. So who's going to do all the stuff that the SPs do then? How about one of the pilots? Hmm...what shall we call him/her to distinguish him/her from the other? How about...Chief Pilot? You couldn't make it up if you tried.

Tell you what, I wouldn't take on all that responsibility unless I was getting paid more for it. If I hadn't already retired of course.
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Old 20th Feb 2015, 22:15
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Old 20th Feb 2015, 22:27
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Looking at the map from SS, it may not cover 90% of the ground but it probably covers 90% of the population and isn't that the point?


Is it worth a shiny new tax payer's bought EC135 in King's Lynn to look for a missing cat from Mrs Miggins' Pie Shop? Really?


Cheers, Frying Pan
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Old 21st Feb 2015, 01:11
  #50 (permalink)  
yme
 
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FP,
You know you actually put that for us all to see?
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Old 21st Feb 2015, 01:34
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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As a taxpayer I have to agree with you Frying Pan.

Too much money wasted in the past on stupid incidents like this that a plod on a bike would have solved years ago.

A machete-wielding teenager who sparked a massive police manhunt including a helicopter, armed police and dogs, was actually just filming for a college project.

The 18-year-old student was reported to the police by members of the public in Norwich, who were concerned the weapon was real. But the hunt was called off after the suspect's mother rang Norfolk Police to tell them the machete was fake, ITV reported.

Superintendent Stuart Gunn said: "Strong words of advice were given by police to the 18-year-old male with regards to the alarm that had been caused.

"We would kindly ask members of the public if they are planning any sort of activity or filming in a public place that may prompt concern amongst the public and, consequently, trigger any police activity, to call us in advance so that we can give suitable advice.

"If the police receive reports of what is believed to be a weapon, openly displayed in public places or used in an inappropriate manner then we need to react promptly to the information that we are given at the time."

source http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015...n_6711422.html

It appears most police helicopter operations outside of London involve chasing kids in stolen cars baiting the plod and ending up with a rap on the knuckles and a starring role in the Police Camera Action series on tv.

The problem in the past was the local forces had a use it or lose it mentality.

Another similar example here

The police helicopter, a dog unit and officers were out in force to arrest two men following the theft of a Land Rover.

An Essex Police spokesman said: “Two men were arrested last night following the theft of a Land Rover in Purleigh.
http://m.gazette-news.co.uk/news/117..._theft/?ref=mr

Who in their right mind would authorise the launch of a helicopter for a Land Rover that will be insured in any case?

In Bournemouth another example.

The police helicopter was scrambled to Poole yesterday evening after two men were seen attempting to steal fuel from a car.

A spokesman from Dorset Police said officers were called to Clover Drive at around 8.50pm following reports two men had been spotted trying to siphon fuel from the vehicle.

The spokesman said: “The NPAS helicopter searched the area but no one was found. The matter is subject to an investigation.”

http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/new...m_car_/?ref=mr

Last edited by Romeopapa; 21st Feb 2015 at 03:01.
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Old 21st Feb 2015, 07:05
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Frying Pan / Romeopapa,

Is this fair? The child of a tax payer, living in a village to the south of Luton, goes missing across fields. 6 aircraft from 4 bases could respond within 20 minutes.

The child of a tax payer, living in a village to the south of Norwich, goes missing across fields..........errrr, might get 1 in about 40 minutes if it's not already on task.
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Old 21st Feb 2015, 07:35
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Surely it is a case of looking at funding and prioritising.

Most of the time the helicopter is superficial.

Let me take your example....

The child of a tax payer, living in a village to the south of Norwich, goes missing across fields..........errrr, might get 1 in about 40 minutes if it's not already on task.

Perhaps you should try living in Perth for a while.

In Western Australia which is about the size of western Europe that would be an excellent response time for the RFDS.

The majority of Mispers,as the UK police call them, are not missing.

The examples I cited above demonstrate the waste of public money that could be assigned elsewhere.

Norwich is not New York.

When you have ambulances waiting hours outside A and E units the question is not how but why spend money on police air support that is rarely justified.

The same goes for the so called Crime Commissioners in the UK. A total and absolute waste of money.

I spent many years in the UK reading local newspaper stories where old folk were rationed to 15 minutes care worker time a day usually low paid workers on the minimum wage.

Turn the next page and there is a senior police officer posing with his air support toy on a school playing field.

The centre of London is so well covered by cameras I wonder why the there is a need for the constant hovering helicopter that appears to have become the norm?

As a pilot I appreciate that the pilots don't want cuts but no one ever does as the so called arts brigade demonstrate when they have to lose a million or two.
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Old 21st Feb 2015, 09:13
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Odd how just like an accident, many new uninformed usernames pop up spouting rubbish. If you've actually worked within UK police air support before and during NPAS and you're a UK tax payer you might have some credible input, that's a pretty small group of people, and they've been involved on here for the long run.
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Old 21st Feb 2015, 09:14
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks for the clarification Sid

Not necessarily behind the drag curve here,
just that you can't always believe everything you read in the Press

The four new fixed-wing aircraft, which are said to be cheaper to run than helicopters,
will be based at East Midlands Airport. It will also house one helicopter.
Nail.
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Old 21st Feb 2015, 09:44
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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It seems to me - as an outsider looking in - that part of the problem in saving money in police aviation is not only in how many you have but how you use them. Where the only measure of success is how quickly an aircraft attends not whether it makes sense.

Using an asset such as this for public or officer safety is right and proper, assisting in the prevention or detection of SERIOUS crime is a reasonable use of a helicopter but lifting just because someone with no knowledge of the capabilities of the aircraft says so, must be where a proportion of the money is wasted.

Infrastructure is expensive, staff are expensive but helicopters are expensive if you use them unwisely. It seems as though we've realised we need to save money so have chopped bases leaving large holes in coverage but have never cared whether the ones we have are being used to best effect.

I feel deeply for those affected by the recent announcements and understand the pride felt by those who built up the pre-NPAS service but times have changed and we can now no longer afford to send a helicopter to every little job. If those who are left continue to be sent on these tasks then perhaps further efficiencies will be sought in the near future.

Art, I understand that some sort of (tin) hat may be in order.

Last edited by MaxR; 21st Feb 2015 at 10:06.
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Old 21st Feb 2015, 10:09
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Sky Sports, my apologies. I failed to realise that life is fair and only a helicopter can locate a missing child.

Art...my apologies also, I didn't realise I was an uninformed non UK tax payer spouting rubbish. I will take your advice and leave this thread to the small group of credible people who have being doing this for the long run. How's that working?

Cheers Frying Pan.
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Old 21st Feb 2015, 10:15
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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To put it all in context, and to prove what a mad world we live in, consider this;

NPAS need to save 14%. Or, to carry on with the existing operating model, raise another £4.5M per annum.

£4.5M buys you one crap premier league footballer.
The new premier league TV rights deal could pay the deficit in 8 hours!!!
The MOD this week announced it is spending £860M on designing, (not building) the new type 26 warships!!!
The MOD this week announced it is spending £300M on a maintenance hub at RAF Marham, (in Norfolk, which won't have a police helicopter to protect it)!!!

£4.5m is a drop in the ocean. £225,000 per base. Surely it can be found somewhere. Corporate sponsorship? Charity donations? Time we started to think outside the box.
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Old 21st Feb 2015, 10:19
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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Old 21st Feb 2015, 10:32
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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SS, one of the reasons that the Premier League can pay £4.5 million for a crap player is that so many people subscribe to er... Sky Sports.

There are many many examples of badly spent tax payers money, and I'm all for Police Aviation but it's not the cure all of crime..far from it. I'm also pretty sure that the RAF can protect it's own maintenance hub, it doesn't need a police helicopter to do that.

Cheers, Frying Pan
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