Heathrow Slots
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CyclicRick
Understand the frustration, but seems to me that what you describe is yet another Airport operator induced regulation, not ATC.
I regularly fly out of an airport in the NE of the UK which operates a large number of helicopters. I can only say that ATC do a fantastic job in mixing helos, that struggle to do anything more than about 120Kts on approach, with the bigger fixed-wing brethren doing 160Kts plus to 4 miles, and all of this regularly in poor weather.
On good days they also have the smaller egg beaters flying in and around the zone mixing it up with the flying club aircraft in addition to the regular scheduled traffic.
However a certain famous airport operator does apply some regulations that the based operators find strange (operating times, etc), but that isn't ATC's fault, they just have to work their way around these regs and take the flak from pilots who do not know or do not understand the airport operators restrictions.
Certainly all the complaints I have read on this subject so far appear to be aimed at the airport operator, not ATC who are doing their best to move us around in the quickest and most efficient way that they can.
Understand the frustration, but seems to me that what you describe is yet another Airport operator induced regulation, not ATC.
I regularly fly out of an airport in the NE of the UK which operates a large number of helicopters. I can only say that ATC do a fantastic job in mixing helos, that struggle to do anything more than about 120Kts on approach, with the bigger fixed-wing brethren doing 160Kts plus to 4 miles, and all of this regularly in poor weather.
On good days they also have the smaller egg beaters flying in and around the zone mixing it up with the flying club aircraft in addition to the regular scheduled traffic.
However a certain famous airport operator does apply some regulations that the based operators find strange (operating times, etc), but that isn't ATC's fault, they just have to work their way around these regs and take the flak from pilots who do not know or do not understand the airport operators restrictions.
Certainly all the complaints I have read on this subject so far appear to be aimed at the airport operator, not ATC who are doing their best to move us around in the quickest and most efficient way that they can.
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Good discussion.
One of the strengths of Rotorheads is that we can discuss these things with the benefit of hearing points of view from both 'sides'.
Thank you to the ATCers for joining in.
One of the strengths of Rotorheads is that we can discuss these things with the benefit of hearing points of view from both 'sides'.
Thank you to the ATCers for joining in.
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Each year the Helicopter Club of Great Britain sets aside a day to give Heathrow controllers a jolly down the helilanes, the purpose being to acquaint ATC more closely with the abilities and special problems of helicopters, and to show 'em a good time. This year I believe it was May 11th, and about 15 controllers were expected. I wasn't there so I don't know.
I suspect that few members of the Club ever land at Heathrow, and this aspect of operations may be neglected in discussions. Perhaps it could be factored in next time.
These flights are good for both parties, and give us an opportunity to show how much we appreciate the assistance of ATC in the London zone.
I suspect that few members of the Club ever land at Heathrow, and this aspect of operations may be neglected in discussions. Perhaps it could be factored in next time.
These flights are good for both parties, and give us an opportunity to show how much we appreciate the assistance of ATC in the London zone.
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The BHAB have a regular meeting with NATS concerning ATC and helicopter operations in the Heathrow and London City Zones. There has been a standing offer of helicopter flights for ATC controllers from the BHAB. At the last meeting detailed arrangements were agreed to allow ATC to be flown around the heliroutes. Don't know whether they have actually happened yet.
NATS has been working hard recently to train up additional controllers for their SVFR desks (the ones that control helicopters in the Zone). I am sure it will be useful ( and hopefully enjoyable)for these recently traned controllers, and give them a pilot's view of these Ops.
NATS has been working hard recently to train up additional controllers for their SVFR desks (the ones that control helicopters in the Zone). I am sure it will be useful ( and hopefully enjoyable)for these recently traned controllers, and give them a pilot's view of these Ops.
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I think the idea of taking controllers for jolly's to have a look is a very good one, I've had the chance to watch a radar controller at work. I must admit it totally baffeled me how they manage to make head nor tail of all those blips, respect.
I think the the argument that most of the hassle lies with the airport authorities is a valid one aswell( see below), but I think maybe the controllers need a little more coaching about helicopter operations and capabilitys, especially at airports with fewer helicopter movements.
My experience is, as was said earlier, once they get to know helicopters there's much less of a problem.
I had to fly into Frankfurt (EDDF) one day because there were "absolutley no available parking slots" at the GAT for my company Falcon 50, when I got there the place was deserted, the boss looked at me as though I was total idiot. I was carpeted for being totally incompetant for not getting a slot with no amount of explanation accepted!
An ex RAF controller friend of mine confirmed my plight saying that when EDDF radar complained of traffic saturation, he (stationed in Berlin) used to switch onto their radar only to see there was almost nothing going on ( they didn't know he could do that).
Maybe they should do a shift at Heathrow!
I think the the argument that most of the hassle lies with the airport authorities is a valid one aswell( see below), but I think maybe the controllers need a little more coaching about helicopter operations and capabilitys, especially at airports with fewer helicopter movements.
My experience is, as was said earlier, once they get to know helicopters there's much less of a problem.
I had to fly into Frankfurt (EDDF) one day because there were "absolutley no available parking slots" at the GAT for my company Falcon 50, when I got there the place was deserted, the boss looked at me as though I was total idiot. I was carpeted for being totally incompetant for not getting a slot with no amount of explanation accepted!
An ex RAF controller friend of mine confirmed my plight saying that when EDDF radar complained of traffic saturation, he (stationed in Berlin) used to switch onto their radar only to see there was almost nothing going on ( they didn't know he could do that).
Maybe they should do a shift at Heathrow!
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If Helinuts reference to the delay at Luton is the flight I beleive it is this suddenly becomes much more fun.
The Operator had been contracted to pick up 2 pax at Luto, 2 Pax Battersea Heliport and then take them to view a "facility" at Heathrow.
For both the Airports the Operator is required to "book in" with a Handling Agent. The Handling agent then deals with all the logistics and communications to arrange the landing, the Operator is effectively out of the loop. The Handling agent chosen on this occasion was also the owner / Operator at Battersea and the owner of the facility at the GA terminal at Heathrow. One agent - All nice and tidy you'd like to think.
However, at no time were the Helo Operator advised that they were subject to a "Slot" time, and even though both the pilot and his Ops team (phone and fax) advised the Handling Agent at Heathrow that the flight would be delayed leaving Luton, (note that they have to contact the Handling Agent as they are the only point of contact!), they were never advised of a change to the landing "slot" time or of any potential violation.
They continued the flight as per their plan, albeit some 15 minutes late, and were at no time advised by ATC or any other means that they had missed their "slot".
It was not until some 3 months later that a letter arrived from BAA advising them that all their operations into London Heathrow were banned for the next 30 day's. This was the first notification - no warning, no discussion.
Living under the Flightpath of Heathrow, and knowing several controllers personally, I appreciate how busy ATC are, and am not pointing the finger at them.
My question is quite simple - why was there no communication from the Handling agent ref. the need for a slot time, the potential violation, and finally the actual violation? Also were the Handling Agent penalised in any way for failure to pass on the information?
The Operator had been contracted to pick up 2 pax at Luto, 2 Pax Battersea Heliport and then take them to view a "facility" at Heathrow.
For both the Airports the Operator is required to "book in" with a Handling Agent. The Handling agent then deals with all the logistics and communications to arrange the landing, the Operator is effectively out of the loop. The Handling agent chosen on this occasion was also the owner / Operator at Battersea and the owner of the facility at the GA terminal at Heathrow. One agent - All nice and tidy you'd like to think.
However, at no time were the Helo Operator advised that they were subject to a "Slot" time, and even though both the pilot and his Ops team (phone and fax) advised the Handling Agent at Heathrow that the flight would be delayed leaving Luton, (note that they have to contact the Handling Agent as they are the only point of contact!), they were never advised of a change to the landing "slot" time or of any potential violation.
They continued the flight as per their plan, albeit some 15 minutes late, and were at no time advised by ATC or any other means that they had missed their "slot".
It was not until some 3 months later that a letter arrived from BAA advising them that all their operations into London Heathrow were banned for the next 30 day's. This was the first notification - no warning, no discussion.
Living under the Flightpath of Heathrow, and knowing several controllers personally, I appreciate how busy ATC are, and am not pointing the finger at them.
My question is quite simple - why was there no communication from the Handling agent ref. the need for a slot time, the potential violation, and finally the actual violation? Also were the Handling Agent penalised in any way for failure to pass on the information?
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connavar,
In a number of ways the details of the two flights don't match up: I can only conclude that they are different.
Which leads me to wonder just how many bans does BAA issue to helicopter operators??
They also seem to be cases of summary justice with little or no opportunity to defend yourself.
In a number of ways the details of the two flights don't match up: I can only conclude that they are different.
Which leads me to wonder just how many bans does BAA issue to helicopter operators??
They also seem to be cases of summary justice with little or no opportunity to defend yourself.
