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Old 15th Mar 2014, 08:03   #101 (permalink)
 
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Cabby;


That site was lit, and I'm not aware of anyone daft enough to use un-lit sites these days.


I heard the Vine show, one bloke claimed to be an aviation analyst, he was ex-Beccles cabin crew and rattled on about instrument lag and all sorts of stuff he got from books, but the real treasure was Tommy Abdy-Collins, long retired, who decided to shoot his stupid mouth off about how pro helicopter pilots fly to Cheltenham for the festival under power lines to avoid the weather. He then regaled the listeners with stories of what cowboys we all are. WELL DONE TOMMY! YOU UTTER C***. Next time you decide to traduce my colleagues and me like this I'm going to stamp on your face you ignorant t***.


SND
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Old 15th Mar 2014, 08:22   #102 (permalink)
 
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Vine

I heard that piece too - what a complete oxygen thief! Made me embarrassed to be ex-AAC. One of the local press websites describes a large tree with the top 25ft newly broken off near by. Whatever the cause, two fewer fellow aviators are mourned by us all. There but for the grace...
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Old 15th Mar 2014, 08:42   #103 (permalink)

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JJ, well said.

I can no longer bear to listen to Jeremy Vine's programme. His whining, sensation seeking, apologist claptrap and the banshee wailing of his extremist, often Harpie like phone in contributors drives me to distraction. The programme has become the radio equivalent of the worst tabloid newspapers. Bring back Jimmy Young!
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Old 15th Mar 2014, 09:19   #104 (permalink)
 
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For a Panorama presenter the bloke seems incredibly thick.I remember him discussing someone with an IQ of 160 "Is that high,doesn't IQ go up to 1000?"
He played the record Abraham,Martin and John. "Oh someone just told me that's about Martin Luther King,I never knew that"
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Old 15th Mar 2014, 09:57   #105 (permalink)
 
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Jellycopter

I think it's a bit of a stretch to start assuming TR problems from the photograph. The nose-down impact and rapid rotor deceleration that would produce that sort of destruction, would probably result in a pretty low TR rpm by the time it, the TR, touched (admittedly all measured in less than seconds)

Time will tell.
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Old 15th Mar 2014, 10:23   #106 (permalink)
 
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Anyone expecting to gain valuable knowledge of private helicopter operations from the Jeremy Vine show will get what they deserve. If you've done this sort of work, you'll know the pressures these 2 guys were under, you'll know that the CAA can legislate till the cows come home, but we would still try to interpret those rules to get the job done. You'd need an ops inspector to wave you off at every site to enforce any rules. It all comes down to being able to make that one decision, can you say no when the red faced boss is giving you the hairdryer treatment on the night? I suggest if you know that your relationship with your employer is otherwise, you're in the wrong industry. I have driven home in the past, expecting a job debrief from the boss next day after saying no, due to weather, and it never happened. I've flown military, police and corporate and in my opinion corporate/private is living on your wits with little or no back-up, it really takes a strong character to last in that industry.
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Old 15th Mar 2014, 11:27   #108 (permalink)
 
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The EC145 can do this right?
No, the 145 has a 3-axis AP.
However the new 145T2, not already in service, will have a 4-axis AP.

skadi
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Old 15th Mar 2014, 11:36   #109 (permalink)
 
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In the published aerial video it seems that the first contact was in the vicinity of the line of straw bales ( parts of the wreck ), then a heavy impact in the freshly ploughed field ( crater ) and finally the wreck came to rest in opposite direction.

skadi
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Old 15th Mar 2014, 12:08   #110 (permalink)
 
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Re the 139 auto approach

The 139 does have a 4 axis AFCS and can fly a very accurate approach to the hove and even do a go around when initiated. However it does need to be set up correctly including defined parameters and location etc. In this case, from what I can surmise, I think that the accident has happened in the early stages of flight and that the approach mode will not have been set up. Of course, it only works well when everything is working correctly.

Regarding the possibility of some sort of power loss, the 139 has excellent OEI performance but it does depend upon what is around you in the form of obstructions.

There are a number of possibilities as to the cause and the AIB will in due course come up with an answer. Speculation, "eye witnesses" and armchair "experts (spotters)" do very little to help the situation apart from spread bad rumour.

In my opinion JV is the radio equivalent of gutter press, he will always take a contrary argument and interview so called "experts" to get a bit of a sensationalist view on a subject. I stopped listening to him a long time ago as he never seemed to give an unbiased outlook on a subject.

God speed to the four who sadly passed away in this tragedy. My thoughts are with their families.
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Old 15th Mar 2014, 12:16   #111 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by skadi View Post
In the published aerial video it seems that the first contact was in the vicinity of the line of straw bales ( parts of the wreck ), then a heavy impact in the freshly ploughed field ( crater ) and finally the wreck came to rest in opposite direction.

skadi
Other media reports/photos indicate that the first contact might have been with the trees that are closer to the road.
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Old 15th Mar 2014, 12:25   #112 (permalink)
 
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Other media reports/photos indicate that the first contact might have been with the trees that are closer to the road.
Ok, that was not mentioned in the video. My assumtions were that the contact with the straw bales made the helicopter to flip over during a flare or so. This could explain the obviously heavy nose down impact.

Here in the second picture theres one straw bale, which was turned over and some parts of the wreck in front of.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co....orfolk-6835790

skadi
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Old 15th Mar 2014, 12:35   #113 (permalink)
 
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Art of Flight is exactly right when he said "corporate/private is living on your wits with little or no back-up, it really takes a strong character to last in that industry."


I would not recommend this work to any pilot who is "professional" in his approach to flying, standards of airmanship will be compromised many times by commercial pressure and/or owners who are used to getting their own way and want to get there like NOW. I had several head to heads with more than one owner ..... e.g. why can't you land in fog? .... why won't you fly in cloud (in a 206L) so and so does, you are an amateur pilot .... why won't you land there, the last pilot did .... and I had more than one narrow escape in fog and low cloud when I was tasked by my company (an AOC holder) to fly as P2 in a company maintained private helicopter but with the owner's own P1. I am of the opinion that that pilot survived more through luck than skill and judgement, but he had to get the job done to please his boss and keep his extremely well paid job. My company's chief pilot had that same frame of mind when the company chairman wanted to fly, or when another private owner's aircraft operated by the company overloaded the number of passengers in his aircraft. When the question of safety was raised the answer was that the company could not criticize the owner or his pilot because otherwise they might lose the maintenance and/or pilot contracts.


I retired many years ago and in those days the CAA weren't interested in "private" helicopter operations, even when they were flown by crews employed by a company holding an AOC. I hope things have changed by now.


My advice, if you are a professional, is fly with a big company, at least you will then have the support of proper rules and, more importantly, the support of other pilots with a professional attitude to their work. In a small company pilots are afraid of losing their jobs if they don't toe the line.


My heartfelt sympathies for the crew of G-LBAL and their relatives.

Last edited by 76fan; 15th Mar 2014 at 23:27.
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Old 15th Mar 2014, 12:54   #114 (permalink)
 
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The 139 does have a 4 axis AFCS and can fly a very accurate approach to the hove and even do a go around when initiated.
So will the 4 axis AFCS also allow a vertical take off profile with CATA performance and continue with a positive ROC with OEI with no visual references?

Last edited by chopjock; 15th Mar 2014 at 13:08.
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Old 15th Mar 2014, 13:06   #115 (permalink)
 
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76 Fan, ArtofFlight;


Well said, Under the new EASA rules a corporate ops manual is a requirement which may give some protection, also under the new rules helicopters which are on AOC's will be required to operate to AOC standards at all times. Those two should give coronaries to some of the private owners who use the AOC system to play the taxman.


I'm ugly enough to tell it like it is, I used to use "I'm not paid enough to die for you" that changed to "I'm the only me I've got and my family would like me back tonight." Nowadays its "you listen to your lawyers, bankers and accountants, well I'm the same as them, but my advice is based on keeping you alive."


I've twice seen signs in helicopter cockpits and several times had owners say "You're the expert, I'm not offended by the word no." I do make it very clear to owners/customers that when I say no, I will have looked at every option, and no means there is no safe way to carry out the flight. I've rarely seen a problem after adopting a direct approach, and when I have I've been relieved to walk away.


SND
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Old 15th Mar 2014, 13:34   #116 (permalink)

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In a small company pilots are afraid of losing their jobs if they don't toe the line.
Well, S76Fan, I'm certainly not afraid of losing mine!
I might lose my job, but I'm certainly not afraid of doing so. I walked from my last job because I was no longer prepared to deal with stupidity by passengers who thought they knew more about flying than than a pilot of over thirty years of professional experience.

However, I am afraid of losing my life, or at least my licence, if I don't do what I know is safe!

SND, too right!
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Old 15th Mar 2014, 15:04   #117 (permalink)
 
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@ Skadi ..... Ok, that was not mentioned in the video. My assumtions were that the contact with the straw bales made the helicopter to flip over during a flare or so. This could explain the obviously heavy nose down impact.
The eye witness and aerial video below tend to indicate that as well

Latest Anglia News - ITV News

Go down to about the third video titled "Bodies removed"
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Old 15th Mar 2014, 15:36   #118 (permalink)


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I worked for Haughy for a VERY short time and walked out due to ureasonable and dangerous pressure- I am one of very many both rotary and fixed wing!!
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Old 15th Mar 2014, 15:38   #119 (permalink)
 
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So will the 4 axis AFCS also allow a vertical take off profile with CATA performance and continue with a positive ROC with OEI with no visual references?
Not as such, however depending on software (not sure what this particular machine has) the afcs - with good knowledge of the system - can be effectively used to conduct a vertical profile takeoff and transition to forward flight.

A few ways to skin the cat however, a vertical profile can be achieved with or without HOV (HOV - trim the height up) and once at an appropriate height TU (transition up) can be used to get into forward flight - it will default to 80 KIAS/200ft RADALT however these parameters can be easily adjusted - ie 1500 ft etc..once there, other modes can be used....depends also on the terrain etc. So far as OEI flyaway in these configuartions, like any helicopter depends on AUW etc etc?

Cheers
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Old 15th Mar 2014, 16:01   #120 (permalink)
 
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Skin the cat - why?

So we are now talking about different methods of taking off from a private/confined site in sh**e weather breaking all the rules in the book. Yes you can engage hover (MUH 30ft?) then climb on the radalt to a good height say 500ft, then trans up to take you to 80kts and you are away, BUT this is not a war zone so do we really need to do it. No of course not. Just remember the old adage 'there are old pilots and bold pilots ......... There is a lot of truth in that.
I agree that we should not be talking about raising the limits either. Stick to the rules and you will be fine. If the limits get raised then you may as well fly by fixed wing.
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