BK117 crash Baltic Sea
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 220
Likes: 3
From: australia
Auto hover for night winching from boats....insanity?? With a decent sized vessel with plenty of references why do you need an auto hover?? Hell, a mate of mine flies 100 nm out to sea at night in his a109 to transfer people onto ships. Not sure what the circumstances were in this case however, I don't think auto hover is necessarily the answer to everything?
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,067
Likes: 40
From: On the big blue planet
With the seaking we never used autohover while shipwinching at night and even for SAR winch out of the water it was rarely used, mostly for training.
Its hard to find a three handed winch operator
1. hand mini joy stick
2. hand winch control
3. hand guides winch cable
skadi
Its hard to find a three handed winch operator
1. hand mini joy stick
2. hand winch control
3. hand guides winch cable
skadi
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 368
Likes: 0
From: Monde
What about rescuing someone from the water at night if you don't have a solid reference, a horizon or surface spume to refer to? Why make life difficult for yourself and do everything manually when you fly an aircraft with an auto-hover facility?
Joined: May 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 18,633
Likes: 1,072
From: Downeast
VSF......What if you do not have the luxury of "Auto Hover" and have to do the old fashioned way it was done for decades before that advent of "Auto Hover"?
Some Kids today seem to forget what it was like in the "Not Good Ol' Days"!
We got the job done back then....but had to work a lot harder to do it....and had to maintain a skill level that might be missing today with the advent of all the improved automation.
Some Kids today seem to forget what it was like in the "Not Good Ol' Days"!
We got the job done back then....but had to work a lot harder to do it....and had to maintain a skill level that might be missing today with the advent of all the improved automation.
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,067
Likes: 40
From: On the big blue planet
VSF
But its mostly done this way, except in autohover....
Westland Seaking HC4 - ZA298/Y - Royal Navy - 845NAS Cliff Winching Training | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
skadi
Number 3. Where does he guide it to? Hand on winch cable isn't necessary.
Westland Seaking HC4 - ZA298/Y - Royal Navy - 845NAS Cliff Winching Training | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
skadi
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 368
Likes: 0
From: Monde
SASless,
Those observant contributors that aren't inclined to just shoot from the hip will note that this line of discussion started with this statement:
'With the seaking we never used autohover while shipwinching at night and even for SAR winch out of the water it was rarely used'
Therefore your 'what if you don't have autohover?' comment is an unnecessary interjection.
If you are seriously advocating that in 2014 night wet winching should be being conducted without the use of some form of autohover facility, then I think it would be for the best if you simply continue to congratulate yourself for your performance in the good old days and allow others to continue with their 21st century discussion.
Skadi,
Although placing the hand on the cable provides the winch operator with the ability to manually determine whether there is any cable slippage/runaway/broken strands of cable (if his winching glove is thin enough) and helps him to take out any swing during the winch in, in truth for the vast majority of occasions it is not actually necessary.
Those observant contributors that aren't inclined to just shoot from the hip will note that this line of discussion started with this statement:
'With the seaking we never used autohover while shipwinching at night and even for SAR winch out of the water it was rarely used'
Therefore your 'what if you don't have autohover?' comment is an unnecessary interjection.
If you are seriously advocating that in 2014 night wet winching should be being conducted without the use of some form of autohover facility, then I think it would be for the best if you simply continue to congratulate yourself for your performance in the good old days and allow others to continue with their 21st century discussion.
Skadi,
Although placing the hand on the cable provides the winch operator with the ability to manually determine whether there is any cable slippage/runaway/broken strands of cable (if his winching glove is thin enough) and helps him to take out any swing during the winch in, in truth for the vast majority of occasions it is not actually necessary.
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 368
Likes: 0
From: Monde
What shouldn't find its way onto these pages is a 12900 post, 50 year veteran, who inexperienced flyers will obviously give a certain amount of credence to, suggesting that in-built safety features are added extras that we really shouldn't have to bother with if we were all up to scratch. We're not.
Night, in the hover over the water without any references is not a place to prove what a man you are. It'll only end in tears.
Night, in the hover over the water without any references is not a place to prove what a man you are. It'll only end in tears.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Guys, i like to follow your discussions-but was this accident really caused by the absence of an "auto-hover-mode"?
No-definitely not..
Lets focus on the facts we have-and think about how we can avoid similar accidents in the future
What will be the "lessons learned" out of this specific accident?
No-definitely not..
Lets focus on the facts we have-and think about how we can avoid similar accidents in the future
What will be the "lessons learned" out of this specific accident?
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Joined: Nov 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 4,753
Likes: 65
From: Alles über die platz
If you are seriously advocating that in 2014 night wet winching should be being conducted without the use of some form of autohover facility, then I think it would be for the best if you simply continue to congratulate yourself for your performance in the good old days and allow others to continue with their 21st century discussion.
Joined: May 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 18,633
Likes: 1,072
From: Downeast
VSF.....you should learn to speak for yourself and leave off speaking for others who are far more able to speak their own minds.
You certainly do not add to the quality of the discussion carrying on the way you do.
You may certainly free to disagree with anything posted here by anyone. What you should do is learn how to do so politely.
You certainly have failed to do that as evidence by your posts.
So...I would remind you of the simple rule we follow here....."Play the Ball.....not the Player!". Violate that too often or in too energetically and you will find yourself batting a very sticky wicket.
Sid.....go back and try to find where I said anything remotely like that and get back with us will you.
To save you the time and effort which I doubt you would take.....here is exactly what I said.
I have added the Bold Print so VSF and you can focus upon what was actually said.
You certainly do not add to the quality of the discussion carrying on the way you do.
You may certainly free to disagree with anything posted here by anyone. What you should do is learn how to do so politely.
You certainly have failed to do that as evidence by your posts.
So...I would remind you of the simple rule we follow here....."Play the Ball.....not the Player!". Violate that too often or in too energetically and you will find yourself batting a very sticky wicket.
Sid.....go back and try to find where I said anything remotely like that and get back with us will you.
To save you the time and effort which I doubt you would take.....here is exactly what I said.
I have added the Bold Print so VSF and you can focus upon what was actually said.
VSF......What if you do not have the luxury of "Auto Hover" and have to do the old fashioned way it was done for decades before that advent of "Auto Hover"?
Some Kids today seem to forget what it was like in the "Not Good Ol' Days"!
We got the job done back then....but had to work a lot harder to do it....and had to maintain a skill level that might be missing today with the advent of all the improved automation.
Some Kids today seem to forget what it was like in the "Not Good Ol' Days"!
We got the job done back then....but had to work a lot harder to do it....and had to maintain a skill level that might be missing today with the advent of all the improved automation.
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 959
Likes: 3
From: New Zealand
Apologies if this is a dumb question but here goes: When winching from vessel at sea, won't the vessel be steaming at a speed to allow a steady heading into wind? If so then isn't auto hover moot, as forward speed required?
Also, someone said: "Night, in the hover over the water without any references is not a place to prove what a man you are. It'll only end in tears."
Again, if winching from a vessel, then isn't the vessel lighting going to allow sufficient visual reference?
Cheers
Also, someone said: "Night, in the hover over the water without any references is not a place to prove what a man you are. It'll only end in tears."
Again, if winching from a vessel, then isn't the vessel lighting going to allow sufficient visual reference?
Cheers
Joined: May 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 18,633
Likes: 1,072
From: Downeast
From Post One of this Thread......
Was not the training exercise the night of the accident for the purpose of Winching to/from the Ship.....much as in either a Pilot Boarding or Casualty Lift from a Ship?
Or......did they do some exercise away from the Ship too?
Yesterday evening a BK117 of DRF Luftrettung crashed into the sea near the island of Ruegen/Germany while on a training mission ( ship winching )
Was not the training exercise the night of the accident for the purpose of Winching to/from the Ship.....much as in either a Pilot Boarding or Casualty Lift from a Ship?
Or......did they do some exercise away from the Ship too?